Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Theology (Christians Only) > Theology > General Theology > Origins Theology
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 27th October 2009, 08:31 PM
oncelost's Avatar
Member

37 Gender: Male Faith: Non-Denominational Party: US-Republican Country: United States Member For 4 Years
 
Join Date: 25th August 2005
Posts: 85
Blessings: 33,487
Reps: 333,918,082,664 (power: 333,918,087)
oncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond repute
oncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond reputeoncelost has a reputation beyond repute
Call it what it is: Evolution. Not Theistic Evolution.

It seems to me that TEs advocate a theory of the origin of all of life's forms that makes no appeal to God. In fact, they vehemently oppose any reference to God as a player in the unguided process responsible for all life's common ancestry. They maintain that no respectable scientist would ascribe an intelligent cause to the extremely, extremely ordered composition of DNA. They say that God is neither evident nor necessary in a theory of the origin of life and life's forms.

So, where's the theistic part of TE come in? Regarding the theory of evolution, what's the difference between Theistic Evolution and Atheistic Evolution?

It seems the descriptive theistic is totally unrelated to the object evolution. I understand that TEs say that evolution and their faith are perfectly consistent. But, argue that. Don’t mislead folks with an attractive, but meaningless title. Why not have subforums for Female Evolutionists, Libertarian Evolutionists and German Evolutionists? Why not call it what it is: Evolution. Not Theistic Evolution.
Reply With Quote
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #2  
Old 27th October 2009, 08:33 PM
laconicstudent's Avatar
Regular Member

20 Gender: Male Faith: Christian Party: US-Others Country: United States Soldier
 
Join Date: 25th September 2009
Posts: 902
Blessings: 3,947
My Mood Asleep
Reps: 497,556,493,290 (power: 497,556,494)
laconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond repute
laconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond repute
The "Theistic" part comes in when we believe that God used the Big Bang and Evolution as a tool. Its a purely theological modifier. The physical theory is identical. I kind of agree though, its a bit redundant. I don't call it "Theistic Evolution" myself, I just say "Evolution".
__________________
"There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for ever should we fail- should we fall- we will know that we have lived." --Anomander Rake.

"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." --Plato

"I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and He heard me out of His holy hill." Psalm 3:4

"The virtuous man is never a novice in worldly things." Marcus Valerius Martialis
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 27th October 2009, 11:17 PM
Mallon's Avatar
Senior Veteran

27 Gender: Male Married Faith: Lutheran Country: Canada Member For 3 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 6th March 2006
Posts: 4,597
Blessings: 18,468
Reps: 2,407,416,190,569 (power: 2,407,416,198)
Mallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond repute
Mallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond reputeMallon has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by oncelost View Post
It seems to me that TEs advocate a theory of the origin of all of life's forms that makes no appeal to God. In fact, they vehemently oppose any reference to God as a player in the unguided process responsible for all life's common ancestry. They maintain that no respectable scientist would ascribe an intelligent cause to the extremely, extremely ordered composition of DNA. They say that God is neither evident nor necessary in a theory of the origin of life and life's forms.

So, where's the theistic part of TE come in? Regarding the theory of evolution, what's the difference between Theistic Evolution and Atheistic Evolution?

It seems the descriptive theistic is totally unrelated to the object evolution. I understand that TEs say that evolution and their faith are perfectly consistent. But, argue that. Don’t mislead folks with an attractive, but meaningless title. Why not have subforums for Female Evolutionists, Libertarian Evolutionists and German Evolutionists? Why not call it what it is: Evolution. Not Theistic Evolution.
Out of curiosity, do you believe in gravity or theistic gravity?
__________________
We can allow satellites, planets, suns, universe, nay whole systems of universes, to be governed by laws, but the smallest insect, we wish to be created at once by special act.

-- Charles Darwin
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 28th October 2009, 12:17 PM
philadiddle's Avatar
Senior Veteran

28 Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Country: Canada Member For 4 Years Steward
 
Join Date: 23rd December 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,539
Blessings: 117,561
Reps: 131,705,117,012 (power: 131,705,124)
philadiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond repute
philadiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by oncelost View Post
It seems to me that TEs advocate a theory of the origin of all of life's forms that makes no appeal to God. In fact, they vehemently oppose any reference to God as a player in the unguided process responsible for all life's common ancestry. They maintain that no respectable scientist would ascribe an intelligent cause to the extremely, extremely ordered composition of DNA. They say that God is neither evident nor necessary in a theory of the origin of life and life's forms.

So, where's the theistic part of TE come in? Regarding the theory of evolution, what's the difference between Theistic Evolution and Atheistic Evolution?

It seems the descriptive theistic is totally unrelated to the object evolution. I understand that TEs say that evolution and their faith are perfectly consistent. But, argue that. Don’t mislead folks with an attractive, but meaningless title. Why not have subforums for Female Evolutionists, Libertarian Evolutionists and German Evolutionists? Why not call it what it is: Evolution. Not Theistic Evolution.
I agree that the term can be misunderstood. In chat forums where we debate origins calling myself a TE lets people know that I'm not in the Richard Dawkins camp, where I think evolution has disproven God. Evolution is the science and theism is the teleology behind it.
__________________
For free printable drum lessons with audio check out my website.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 28th October 2009, 04:55 PM
Senior Member

49 Gender: Male Married Faith: Non-Denominational Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 30th June 2003
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 1,432
Blessings: 2,109
My Mood Sleepy
Reps: 37,997,878,792 (power: 37,997,886)
sfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond repute
sfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond reputesfs has a reputation beyond repute
It seems the descriptive theistic is totally unrelated to the object evolution. I understand that TEs say that evolution and their faith are perfectly consistent. But, argue that. Don’t mislead folks with an attractive, but meaningless title. Why not have subforums for Female Evolutionists, Libertarian Evolutionists and German Evolutionists? Why not call it what it is: Evolution. Not Theistic Evolution.
When I'm writing a scientific paper, I do call the process evolution. When I'm describing my position on creation to other Christians, many of whom think evolution = atheism and Christianity = creationism, I call my position theistic evolution, since the combination of the two words conveys important information to them. It's not an ideal phrase, but it does the job better than the bare word "evolution" does.

We don't have forums for female, libertarian or German evolutionists because there aren't large groups who think females, libertarians and Germans cannot accept evolution, or who think that all good female, libertarian Germans should attack evolution.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 28th October 2009, 05:42 PM
crawfish's Avatar
Veteran

43 Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Party: US-Others Country: United States Member For 2 Years
 
Join Date: 21st February 2007
Location: Way out in left field
Posts: 1,365
Blessings: 21,382
My Mood Lurking
Reps: 33,874,322,848 (power: 33,874,326)
crawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond repute
crawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by oncelost View Post
It seems to me that TEs advocate a theory of the origin of all of life's forms that makes no appeal to God. In fact, they vehemently oppose any reference to God as a player in the unguided process responsible for all life's common ancestry. They maintain that no respectable scientist would ascribe an intelligent cause to the extremely, extremely ordered composition of DNA. They say that God is neither evident nor necessary in a theory of the origin of life and life's forms.

So, where's the theistic part of TE come in? Regarding the theory of evolution, what's the difference between Theistic Evolution and Atheistic Evolution?

It seems the descriptive theistic is totally unrelated to the object evolution. I understand that TEs say that evolution and their faith are perfectly consistent. But, argue that. Don’t mislead folks with an attractive, but meaningless title. Why not have subforums for Female Evolutionists, Libertarian Evolutionists and German Evolutionists? Why not call it what it is: Evolution. Not Theistic Evolution.
TE believes that God is the creator and sustainer of all things. We believe that He is fully capable of supernatural work, yet that He used the natural as the tool for creation. We believe this because God's work is revealed through nature and nature indicates strong evidence of evolution and a non-literal creation story.

Atheist evolutionists regard evolutionary change as random. We regard evolutionary changes as intended.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 28th October 2009, 10:13 PM
laconicstudent's Avatar
Regular Member

20 Gender: Male Faith: Christian Party: US-Others Country: United States Soldier
 
Join Date: 25th September 2009
Posts: 902
Blessings: 3,947
My Mood Asleep
Reps: 497,556,493,290 (power: 497,556,494)
laconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond repute
laconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
TE believes that God is the creator and sustainer of all things. We believe that He is fully capable of supernatural work, yet that He used the natural as the tool for creation. We believe this because God's work is revealed through nature and nature indicates strong evidence of evolution and a non-literal creation story.

Atheist evolutionists regard evolutionary change as random. We regard evolutionary changes as intended.
Emphasis mine, I'd simply like to qualify this as being a theological point, not a disagreement with science. God obviously worked through Natural Selection, not in spite of it.
__________________
"There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for ever should we fail- should we fall- we will know that we have lived." --Anomander Rake.

"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." --Plato

"I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and He heard me out of His holy hill." Psalm 3:4

"The virtuous man is never a novice in worldly things." Marcus Valerius Martialis
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 29th October 2009, 03:16 AM
philadiddle's Avatar
Senior Veteran

28 Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Country: Canada Member For 4 Years Steward
 
Join Date: 23rd December 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,539
Blessings: 117,561
Reps: 131,705,117,012 (power: 131,705,124)
philadiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond repute
philadiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond reputephiladiddle has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by crawfish View Post
We regard evolutionary changes as intended.
Originally Posted by laconicstudent View Post
Emphasis mine, I'd simply like to qualify this as being a theological point, not a disagreement with science. God obviously worked through Natural Selection, not in spite of it.
Yes, evolution is a natural system but unlike the atheists we apply Aristotle's fourth cause to it; Telos.
__________________
For free printable drum lessons with audio check out my website.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 29th October 2009, 04:36 AM
laconicstudent's Avatar
Regular Member

20 Gender: Male Faith: Christian Party: US-Others Country: United States Soldier
 
Join Date: 25th September 2009
Posts: 902
Blessings: 3,947
My Mood Asleep
Reps: 497,556,493,290 (power: 497,556,494)
laconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond repute
laconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond reputelaconicstudent has a reputation beyond repute
Of course, I just felt compelled to clarify.
__________________
"There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for ever should we fail- should we fall- we will know that we have lived." --Anomander Rake.

"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." --Plato

"I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and He heard me out of His holy hill." Psalm 3:4

"The virtuous man is never a novice in worldly things." Marcus Valerius Martialis
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 29th October 2009, 02:30 PM
crawfish's Avatar
Veteran

43 Gender: Male Married Faith: Christian Party: US-Others Country: United States Member For 2 Years
 
Join Date: 21st February 2007
Location: Way out in left field
Posts: 1,365
Blessings: 21,382
My Mood Lurking
Reps: 33,874,322,848 (power: 33,874,326)
crawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond repute
crawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond reputecrawfish has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by oncelost View Post
Okay. Then why not call it Christian Evolution or Bible-believing Evolution? Wouldn't that more squarely address your critics. I guess I still find TE a little misleading. I guess I'm a Theistic Lawyer with Theistic Kids and enjoy Theistic Gardening and Theistic Woodworking.
Some of prefer the term "Evolutionary Creationism".
Reply With Quote
Reply


Return to Origins Theology

Thread Tools
Display Modes



 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:44 AM.


vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007 - 2008, PixelFX Studios