| Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology The forum to discuss the doctrine & nature of God the Father, Christ the Son & the Holy Spirit. |
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7th November 2009, 12:51 AM
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Reps: 38,221,363,904,330 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by curious-one  There is abundant scripture describing actions and character of the Holy Spirit leading us to believe he is a person or being. There are a few scriptures equating the Holy Spirit to God. Jesus is equated to God.
There is not a single verse that explicitly states the Holy Spirit is a person, nor that God is a person. There is not a verse that explicitly states that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three persons in one entity. Why doesn't scripture command us to worship the Spirit if he is God?
Personally, I believe the Trinity doctrine is the closest we can come to understanding the identity of God. I believe the doctrine, but I cannot wrap my mind around the idea of three persons sharing one entity. It seems contradictory. It's a concept humans can't fully understand, and I accept that.
Here's my problem: even though I believe in the Trinity, I don't know if it should be considered a heresy to reject it. If it is such an important issue, why didn't God make it crystal clear for us to understand?
I appreciate all thoughts and responses--thank you.
Read Psalms 82 then to really get confused. The one that calls the prophets "gods".
Yet it also says that they are not perfect. That they are given divinity, but have to uphold what is right and reject what is wrong.
Paul points out when Christ defeats all enemies, then Christ will be subjected to God.
Jesus is by whom we know God, the Gateway, the Door. He 'alone comes from Heaven' to connect us to God as true children of God. Jesus should consume you, He is meant to be your teacher, the one you follow to strive to be like.
Doctrines are things to consider. If they hurt your faith, then move on. The Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Jesus are all equated in Scripture. I think there is more to the trinity, not less. Part of that more is to not see yourself confined as someone who is meant to be no child of God, but someone who is meant to be more of a child of God.  |
8th November 2009, 07:46 PM
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Reps: 16,521,278,994,214,560 (power: 16,521,278,994,219) | |  Homoousious would get you branded as a heretic...
Originally Posted by heymikey80 Did you know that, prior to Nicea, asserting "homoousios" would get you branded a heretic? Yet afterward it was orthodoxy.
No...I didn't know this and I still don't know this. Please substantiate
this assertion with historical references so we can check this assertion
as being a valid one. |
8th November 2009, 09:05 PM
|  | Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
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Reps: 1,243,719,100,320,955,904 (power: 1,243,719,100,320,976) | | Originally Posted by Breckmin No...I didn't know this and I still don't know this. Please substantiate
this assertion with historical references so we can check this assertion
as being a valid one.
Sure. Check out the Synods of Antioch in the mid-200's.
__________________
"... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms Canons of Dordt, 1.16
"Have I become your enemy by telling the truth?" Paul |
1st December 2009, 10:49 PM
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Reps: 400,546,320,683,932,352 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by curious-one There is abundant scripture describing actions and character of the Holy Spirit leading us to believe he is a person or being. There are a few scriptures equating the Holy Spirit to God. Jesus is equated to God.
There is not a single verse that explicitly states the Holy Spirit is a person, nor that God is a person. There is not a verse that explicitly states that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three persons in one entity. Why doesn't scripture command us to worship the Spirit if he is God?
Personally, I believe the Trinity doctrine is the closest we can come to understanding the identity of God. I believe the doctrine, but I cannot wrap my mind around the idea of three persons sharing one entity. It seems contradictory. It's a concept humans can't fully understand, and I accept that.
Here's my problem: even though I believe in the Trinity, I don't know if it should be considered a heresy to reject it. If it is such an important issue, why didn't God make it crystal clear for us to understand?
I appreciate all thoughts and responses--thank you.
Hi curious one 
I know a lot of people who believe in the "trinity" as just accepting the church teachings.
But in all the years I've had folks explain in to me I've never comprehended it. God is One and it would only be a carnal minded problem to think of Him otherwise.
So I don't "believe" in a trinity. I believe in Jesus Christ
He is the Husband to the Church who produces Children we know from scripture, so He is the Father in the New Covenant.
Prior to that He was the obedient Son of God.
Now with Him IN me as the Holy Spirit, I am that obedient Son of God, because of "Christ in me".
And there it is! So simple and comprehensive that all of scripture just unfolds and blossoms like a rose with perfection in understanding.
No need to replace it with a theory of "three persons" as "one" (lol), throw some confusion in there with that hehe.
But I've never made heads or tales of any "trinity" arguments so no, you sure don't have to be a "trinitarian" to be a Christian lol.
(not to mention the first and foremost commandment!) (Mar 12:29) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Blessings,
Son of Israel |
3rd December 2009, 07:42 PM
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Reps: 174,144,866,975,478,272 (power: 174,144,866,975,486) | | Originally Posted by curious-one There is abundant scripture describing actions and character of the Holy Spirit leading us to believe he is a person or being. There are a few scriptures equating the Holy Spirit to God. Jesus is equated to God.
There is not a single verse that explicitly states the Holy Spirit is a person, nor that God is a person. There is not a verse that explicitly states that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three persons in one entity. Why doesn't scripture command us to worship the Spirit if he is God?
Personally, I believe the Trinity doctrine is the closest we can come to understanding the identity of God. I believe the doctrine, but I cannot wrap my mind around the idea of three persons sharing one entity. It seems contradictory. It's a concept humans can't fully understand, and I accept that.
Here's my problem: even though I believe in the Trinity, I don't know if it should be considered a heresy to reject it. If it is such an important issue, why didn't God make it crystal clear for us to understand?
I appreciate all thoughts and responses--thank you.
The Holy Spirit is not a Person and God is not a Person. God is a Spirit. For a Spirit has no Soul.
The Holy Spirit receives worship (Exodus 33:18; 2 Chronicles 5:13-14; Ezekiel 39:13).
Exodus 33:18 And he said, "Please, show me Your glory."
If glory is interpreted as Person, consider changing Person to Spirit and it will all make sense.
Exodus 33:18 And he said, "Please, show me Your Holy Spirit."
When Jesus was born, Jesus was a Person. When Jesus died, He was not a Person, but a Spirit.
The Trinity doctrine is not close.
God is not three Persons. God is three Role. This is the perfect word.
Definition for role:
God the Son's role was to shed blood, and died, and was resurrected to give freedom, for every human in the earth.
God the Spirit's role is helping every human repent, be filled with the Holy Spirit, and helping every human be free with blood of Jesus and Jesus name.
This is what my father told me.
__________________
A time of peace comes before God institutes end. We are in the second to last age before then.
The end will not come until God announces it publicly, for judgment does not come until it has been formally announced (John 12:28-31, Revelation 6:12-17).
See Isaiah 57:15-16, Job 7:17, Psalm 8:4, Job 15:14, Acts 17:26-28, Psalm 102:18-20 for why God cares about mankind.
See Deuteronomy 4:24 and Numbers 25 to see how vast His care is for His people. |
4th December 2009, 02:36 PM
|  | Born-again Liberal Episcopalian
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Reps: 252,914,500,256,318,656 (power: 252,914,500,256,337) | | Originally Posted by jpark43 The Holy Spirit is not a Person and God is not a Person. God is a Spirit. For a Spirit has no Soul.
The Holy Spirit receives worship (Exodus 33:18; 2 Chronicles 5:13-14; Ezekiel 39:13).
Exodus 33:18 And he said, "Please, show me Your glory."
If glory is interpreted as Person, consider changing Person to Spirit and it will all make sense.
Exodus 33:18 And he said, "Please, show me Your Holy Spirit."
When Jesus was born, Jesus was a Person. When Jesus died, He was not a Person, but a Spirit.
The Trinity doctrine is not close.
God is not three Persons. God is three Role. This is the perfect word.
Definition for role:
God the Son's role was to shed blood, and died, and was resurrected to give freedom, for every human in the earth.
God the Spirit's role is helping every human repent, be filled with the Holy Spirit, and helping every human be free with blood of Jesus and Jesus name.
This is what my father told me.
This is an interesting theory, and some of the Gnostics would have had a wonderful time with it.
However, it is not how Christianity has historically understood God, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit.
And it contradicts the Bible, as well. Sure, you have cited your understanding of some verses. But look carefully at what Philippians 2 and I Corinthians 15 have to say about the Risen Jesus. He is not a discarnate spirit, He was raised a spiritual body, as a person.
The idea that God plays three Roles is Modalism, and it was early on rejected, for good reason. Look at how Jesus on earth interacted with the One He called Father. That was not role playing, that was a person loving and worshipping another person.
Sure, orthodox Trinitarian theology falls short of explaining God -- anything would; he's God and we are mere mortals. But it does not contradict what we know of God -- and all the heterical explanations do.
Also be careful that what you mean by a term and what someone else means by it are not contradictory. I remember an occasion a few years ago when I called out Hentenza for what looked to me like a heretical comment in response to one of my posts -- it turned out that we were both defending the Hypostatic Union, and mistaking the other's imprecision in wording posts for denying it.  This was, to put it mildly, Not A Good Thing, and I'm glad we discovered the problem -- our words, not our understanding of Jesus!
__________________ "It is written, 'My house shall be a house of prayer,' but you have made it a den of thieves." -Jesus "You've got to be taught before it's too late / Before you are six or seven or eight / To hate all the people your relatives hate / You've got to be carefully taught." - Oscar Hammerstein II |
5th December 2009, 12:14 AM
|  | Non-Metaphysical Christian Critic
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Reps: 95,798,172,692,379,840 (power: 95,798,172,692,383) | | Originally Posted by curious-one There is abundant scripture describing actions and character of the Holy Spirit leading us to believe he is a person or being. There are a few scriptures equating the Holy Spirit to God. Jesus is equated to God.
There is not a single verse that explicitly states the Holy Spirit is a person, nor that God is a person. There is not a verse that explicitly states that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three persons in one entity. Why doesn't scripture command us to worship the Spirit if he is God?
Personally, I believe the Trinity doctrine is the closest we can come to understanding the identity of God. I believe the doctrine, but I cannot wrap my mind around the idea of three persons sharing one entity. It seems contradictory. It's a concept humans can't fully understand, and I accept that.
Here's my problem: even though I believe in the Trinity, I don't know if it should be considered a heresy to reject it. If it is such an important issue, why didn't God make it crystal clear for us to understand?
I appreciate all thoughts and responses--thank you.
The very idea of heresy is preposterous unless you accept the historical testimony of the community of believers stretching from the apostles to the present day.
Furthermore, you can't rely on the teachings of the Bible as the sole factor in distinguishing truth from heresy, because the very belief of the Old and New Testaments as scripture stems from church tradition. In other words, you arbitrarily validate one tradition and reject another.
In a nutshell: If you are willing to question the Trinity, why accept the Christian Bible as sacred?
__________________ ...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession,
Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
- From The Four Quartets by T.S. Eliot
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5th November 2010, 12:02 PM
|  | Regular Member
 
| | Join Date: 14th September 2010
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Reps: 1,710,285,916,512,063 (power: 1,710,285,916,514) | | | A few mis-guided people teach that the Holy Spirit is a force,
but all of the following Scriptures teach otherwise.
THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS THE ATTRIBUTES OF A PERSON
he has wisdom, knowledge, understanding
.
.
. Isaiah 11:2
he hears, speaks, guides
.
.
..
. John 16:13
he has a mind
..
..
Romans 8:27, Acts 15:28
he knows things, teaches
...
..
.... 1 Corinthians 2:11,13
he loves
.
.
Romans 15:30, Galatians 5:22
he speaks
..
.
Acts 8:29, 10:19, 13:2; Rev. 2:7, 2:17
he reveals things
.
.. Luke 2:26, Ephesians 3:5
he leads, helps, intercedes
..
.
Romans 8:14, 8:26-27
he has a will, distributes gifts
.
.
1 Corinthians 12:11
he justifies (declares righteous!)
..
1 Corinthians 6:11
he forbids
.
.
Acts 16:6-7
he devises plans
.
...
..
Isaiah 30:1
he comforts
.
.
..
.. Acts 9:31; John 14-16 (KJV)
he fellowships
...
.
Philippians 2:1, 2 Corinthians 13:14
he bears witness
..
..
Romans 8:16, 1 John 5:6
he can be lied to, tested
..
Acts 5:3-4, 9
he can be insulted
.
Hebrews 10:29
he can be grieved (saddened) .
... Isaiah 63:10, Ephes. 4:30
he can be quenched (hindered)
1 Thessalonians 5:19
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God's precious Scriptures are of no value to those who don't believe them!
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5th November 2010, 09:35 PM
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Reps: 401,631,199,002,123,648 (power: 401,631,199,002,128) | | Originally Posted by curious-one There is abundant scripture describing actions and character of the Holy Spirit leading us to believe he is a person or being. There are a few scriptures equating the Holy Spirit to God. Jesus is equated to God.
There is not a single verse that explicitly states the Holy Spirit is a person, nor that God is a person. There is not a verse that explicitly states that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three persons in one entity. Why doesn't scripture command us to worship the Spirit if he is God?
Personally, I believe the Trinity doctrine is the closest we can come to understanding the identity of God. I believe the doctrine, but I cannot wrap my mind around the idea of three persons sharing one entity. It seems contradictory. It's a concept humans can't fully understand, and I accept that.
Here's my problem: even though I believe in the Trinity, I don't know if it should be considered a heresy to reject it. If it is such an important issue, why didn't God make it crystal clear for us to understand?
I appreciate all thoughts and responses--thank you.
Non-Trinitarianism is heretical. That doesn't mean that heterodoxy means one is hellbound or even that one can't be a Christian, it just means that the person is outside of the historic and orthodox Christian faith. An Eastern Orthodox theologian, Theophan the Recluse, once wrote that we shouldn't worry ourselves about the salvation of the heterodox "they have a Savior who cares about their salvation just as we do". Though he does warn against turning away from the Faith as received.
I'm emphatically Trinitarian, it's not just a relic of my faith it's intrinsic to it and it saturates the whole of my life as a Christian. And while I'll defend Trinitarianism up and down, I'm not about to stand in the place of judgment over those who reject the historic, catholic and orthodox Faith received down to us to the present day through the faithfulness witness of the Christian Church--God will do so, He is the One who will separate the sheep and the goats, the wheat and the tares. When our Lord describes the Judgment on the Last Day, His criteria isn't how good, right or accurate our theology was, but how we treated the "least of these" in our midst.
-CryptoLutheran
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Heavenly Father, be with all Your children who dwell in the Land. In Christ's Name may there be peace for all who dwell there.
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5th November 2010, 10:04 PM
|  | I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church
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Reps: 1,104,700,223,831,314,944 (power: 1,104,700,223,831,322) | | | I believe that if you do not believe in the Trinity then you do not worship the true LORD, and you are not a partaker of His covenant. It's a really simple concept, that the LORD is the Father, the Son, and the Ghost. All of these identities are one God.
__________________
If the dead are not raised...
Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.
Last edited by ivebeenshown; 5th November 2010 at 10:09 PM.
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