Oh, ok well then scratch that. You for one were aware of what proton were
__________________ "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for ever should we fail- should we fall- we will know that we have lived." --Anomander Rake.
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Hey, guys, all I did was quote the Science Dictionary.
Take it up with them if you disagree.
Let's not make a federal case out of this, okay?
Hey, its no big deal. I was just trying to explain what an ion is to you, since you were a little confused about it. Usually you seem to welcome that sort of thing. You should know by now I would never steer you wrong on science.
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I see a lot of claims, and sources for none of them.
It's not in the peer-review bible on cosmology, I know. But that doesn’t mean it’s not good science.
If plasma cosmology is fully allowed in the peer-review bible on cosmology that bible will be proven to have been false for these pass many years, and we can’t have that now, can we? History will have to be rewritten, encyclopedias will have to be rewritten, science books, school books, library books, governments will feel deceived, taxpayers will feel deceived, funding will be lost, jobs will be lost, etc. etc. etc. Electrical engineers and plasma physicists will be the cosmologists of the future. They will be, anyway.
By the way as for this:
Originally Posted by doveaman
Plasma is composed of electrically charged particles (negative electrons and positive ions), you realize, right?
Plasma therefore is a far better conductor of electricity than copper or gold, you realize, right?
And saying "Negative electrons and positive ions" is wrong. The fact that you are using the word "ions" to refer to protons doesn't help you.
Unfortunately, anyone whose taken high school Chemistry will tell you that "Negative Electrons" is redundant since electrons are always the bearer of negative charge, the positively charged particles are called "Protons" (not ions!) and anything that doesn't have a balanced number of electrons and protons has a formal charge, and is referred to as an "Ion", the charge of which can be denoted with the more specific terms: "Anion" for a negative charge or "Cation" for a positive charge.
I don’t see how this is any different from what I said about negative electrons and positive ions.
WIKIPEDIA: “An ion is an atom or molecule where the total number of electrons is not equal to the total number of protons, giving it a net positive or negative electrical charge. An anion...is an ion with more electrons than protons, giving it a net negative...Conversely, a cation...is an ion with more protons than electrons.”
Notice that both the “anion” and the “cation” are also called an “ion” with “a net positive or negative electrical charge”. So positively charged ions can be referred to as “positively charged ions”.
Surely you mean that plasma is ionized gas....
What is Plasma?
Plasma is the fourth state of matter. It differs from solids, liquids and gases in so far as its atoms are divided into free-floating 'negative' electrons and 'positive' ions (an atom which has lost its electron/s). It is sometimes referred to as an ionized gas.
Students are generally taught about only three states of matter, and when Plasma does get a mention, little importance is assigned. Not only should plasma be added to the list, but the order should be reversed to put it in first place. The reasons for this will become clear.
The term Plasma was borrowed from blood plasma in order to describe its almost life-like and self-organizing properties.
Plasma sometimes emits light when under the excitation of electrical and magnetic fields. Polar auroras bear witness to this fact.
Plasma is almost everywhere. At least ninety-nine percent of the known universe is, in fact, matter in its plasma state! The surface of the sun (and stars) is plasma; not hot gas, which is quite a different thing.
Plasma in space consists entirely of ions and electrons, and is thus very energetic or 'hot'. Only when cooled does it form the matter to which we are familiar here on Earth: solids, liquids, and gases.
Because plasma remains electrically charged in space, it is influenced more by electromagnetic forces than gravity. In fact space, once considered mostly empty, has been found to be alive with plasma. Vast flows of charged particles have been discovered spanning hundreds-of-thousands of light years across interstellar space.
The most familiar examples of electrical plasmas here on earth are neon signs and lighting, television screens, and electrical arc welding machines. Fire and Lightning are also forms of Plasma.
Plasma is an excellent conductor of electricity. Because of its free-flowing electrons its conductive properties far surpass those of copper and gold.
Due to its interaction with electromagnetism, plasmas display a complexity in structure far exceeding that of matter in gaseous, liquid, or solid states. It has a tendency to form into cellular and filamentary structures.
These structures derive from the fact that a charged particle flow (or current) produces a ring of magnetic fields around itself, 'pinching' plasma into multi-filamentary strands, as can be seen on both cosmic and more localized scales. Pictured bottom are novelty plasma-lamps typical of those available on the high street.
Plasma cosmology has gone beyond hypothesis and analysis. There are problems with part three, of course, experimentation on universal scales, but the fact is that plasmas are highly scalable, and super-computing capabilities have enabled us to model plasma behaviors on galactic scales...utilizing only a few simple formulae.
These models are consistent with reality. Big Bang cosmology, by contrast, fails to adequately account for the 'clumpiness' and filamentary structures that we observe.
Plasma cosmology does NOT rely on abstract mathematical modeling or an increasing array of exotic hypotheticals like Dark Matter and Dark Energy!
Last edited by Doveaman; 7th November 2009 at 06:19 PM.
It's not in the peer-review bible on cosmology, I know. But that doesn’t mean it’s not good science.
Yeah, its about as good science as the Invisible Pink Unicorns. If Plasma Cosmology is so right, why can't it meet the basic standards the same as every other field?
Originally Posted by Doveaman
If plasma cosmology is fully allowed in the peer-review bible on cosmology that bible will be proven to have been false for these pass many years, and we can’t have that now, can we?
Lol, it happens all the time, actually.
Originally Posted by Doveaman
History will have to be rewritten, encyclopedias will have to be rewritten, science books, school books, library books, governments will feel deceived, taxpayers will feel deceived, funding will be lost, jobs will be lost, etc. etc. etc. Electrical engineers and plasma physicists will be the cosmologists of the future. They will be, anyway.
*bites his lip* science is adapting all the time in case you haven't noticed... This would be nothing new.
Originally Posted by Doveaman
I don’t see how this is any different from what I said about negative electrons and positive ions.
WIKIPEDIA: “An ion is an atom or molecule where the total number of electrons is not equal to the total number of protons, giving it a net positive or negative electrical charge. An anion...is an ion with more electrons than protons, giving it a net negative...Conversely, a cation...is an ion with more protons than electrons.”
Notice that both the “anion” and the “cation” are also called an “ion” with “a net positive or negative electrical charge”. So positively charged ions can be referred to as “positively charged ions”.
Except that isn't what you said. You said "Negative Electrons" and "Positive Ions" Why didn't you just say "cation" and avoid looking like you didn't understand basic terminology?
Originally Posted by Doveaman
What is Plasma?
Plasma is the fourth state of matter. It differs from solids, liquids and gases in so far as its atoms are divided into free-floating 'negative' electrons and 'positive' ions (an atom which has lost its electron/s). It is sometimes referred to as an ionized gas.
Ok, fine so far. You are redundant with "negative electrons" and you could just say cation, but oh well.
Originally Posted by Doveaman
Students are generally taught about only three states of matter, and when Plasma does get a mention, little importance is assigned.
Because plasma isn't seen very often on earth, high schools don't experiment with it, very few undergrads deal much with it until upper divisions. Why would we spend much time on it? Its irrelevant at general levels.
Originally Posted by Doveaman
. Not only should plasma be added to the list, but the order should be reversed to put it in first place. The reasons for this will become clear.
More then solids, liquids and gasses, which we actually encounter in everyday life?
Originally Posted by Doveaman
Plasma is almost everywhere. At least ninety-nine percent of the known universe is, in fact, matter in its plasma state!
You have consistently failed to source that figure.
Originally Posted by Doveaman
Plasma in space consists entirely of ions and electrons
Naturally, since plasma is ionized gas.... Although if your talking about free electrons, you'd be wrong... Free electrons are just that, free electrons, they don't count as a plasma
Originally Posted by Doveaman
Fire and Lightning are also forms of Plasma.
No... fire is an incandescent gas, which admittedly can become plasma.
Lightning is electricity, which is the flow of electrons. It doesn't involve any protons or neutrons moving.
Originally Posted by Doveaman
Plasma is an excellent conductor of electricity. Because of its free-flowing electrons its conductive properties far surpass those of copper and gold.
I've already refuted this.
Originally Posted by Doveaman
Due to its interaction with electromagnetism, plasmas display a complexity in structure far exceeding that of matter in gaseous, liquid, or solid states. It has a tendency to form into cellular and filamentary structures.
Citations? Usually, gasses and highly energetic atoms don't form highly organized structures. I'd be fascinated to see the underlying math and which intermolecular forces you justify this statement, and would be stronger then ionic bonding, covalent bonding, hydrogen bonding, Van der Waals interactions....
Originally Posted by Doveaman
Plasma cosmology has gone beyond hypothesis and analysis.
Then it is religion, not science.
__________________ "There is no struggle too vast, no odds too overwhelming, for ever should we fail- should we fall- we will know that we have lived." --Anomander Rake.
"We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light." --Plato
"I cried unto the LORD with my voice, and He heard me out of His holy hill." Psalm 3:4
"The virtuous man is never a novice in worldly things." Marcus Valerius Martialis
Last edited by laconicstudent; 7th November 2009 at 06:42 PM.
Just to clarify: An ionized gas is not a plasma. In a plasma, all the electrons have been stripped from their nuclei. The temperature is so high that electrons cannot attain a stable orbital. A plasma is not a solid, liquid, or gas. It is a different state of matter.
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Electrical engineers and plasma physicists will be the cosmologists of the future.
In the beginning there was resistance, and nothing more. But verily did the great op-amp in the sky modulate his hand and cast forth greats fields of Bees and Eels to induce current into the universe. Grounded be his name.
Oh, ok well then scratch that. You for one were aware of what proton were
Yes, but relevant to the concern regarding ions and protons, that "post q.v." is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Don't let a derail continue based on handwaving and non-sequiters.
Because plasma isn't seen very often on earth, high schools don't experiment with it, very few undergrads deal much with it until upper divisions. Why would we spend much time on it? Its irrelevant at general levels.
More then solids, liquids and gasses, which we actually encounter in everyday life?
You have consistently failed to source that figure.
Common Plasmas
Just a basic source, and no I don't necessarily agree with the one you are debating with on this thread.
Well, they are many who are of the view that good science is very much in union with true religion. After all, good science does reveal God, you do know that, right?
“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge...
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”... Ps 19:1-2, Rom 1:20.
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It takes more faith to believe the universe happened by chance than to believe it happened by God.- Doveaman
Well, they are many who are of the view that good science is very much in union with true religion. After all, good science does reveal God, you do know that, right?
“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge...
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”... Ps 19:1-2, Rom 1:20.
Nope, because the existence of God is not something that could be addressed by science. God can't be put to the test, in any way.
Furthermore, it is illogical to reject empirical evidence and logic - for some, if God was empirically demonstrable faith would no longer be a choice, it would be a compulsion, which goes against the nature of God as described in the Bible.
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