Did Paul Expect To Be In Heaven Immediately After Death [phi 1:21-23] ?
“For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.22But if I live in theflesh, this is the fruit of my labor. Yet I do not know what I shall choose.23For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better.24But to remain in the fleshis more needful for you.25And having this confidence, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your advancement and joy of faith,” Phil 1:21-25 MKJV
Phillip 1:23 is the most potent argument that the advocates of Life After Death can pull. The reasons are obvious.
Paul was saying that he was confused between departing and being with Jesus and remaining to serve Christ. The question here is: 'What does 'departing and being with Christ' mean ?'. Does it mean death ?
In verse 21 Paul makes it clear that for him 'to live is Christ' meaning that Paul saw living as a chance to serve Christ as he explained in verses 22 & 24.
He also continued to say that on the other hand for him 'to die is gain'. It is important to note here that Paul is talking of physical death as in when we loose our loved ones because he is confused in choosing between dying and living 'in the flesh' (v 21).
Now a 'Million dollar question' is: 'How was death gain to Paul ?'. This question is answered by what Paul says as he continues:
“For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better.24But to remain in the fleshis more needful for you.” Phil 1:23-24 MKJV
Paul is talking of the two opposed events and that is dying and living. Each of these events has it's benefit for Paul. The benefit of living is that Paul will continue to serve Jesus [v22,24]. Then clearly the other remaining benefit of the two which is 'departing and being with Christ' can only be a result of the other event which is a death of Paul.
Therefore Paul clearly saw death as a means for him to meet Christ.
Discussing 'Soul Sleepers' Response
Those advocating Soul Sleep belief state that Paul wrote these words because he
understood that when he dies the next thing he would experience would be the trumpet of the return of the Lord since he'd be asleep all along ?
Paul Dies >> Paul Sleeps Unconscious For Centuries Before The Lord's Return >> Jesus Returns And Raises The Sleeping Saints Including Paul Who Then Regains His Consciousness Would Paul see it as a benefit for him or for Jesus to leave the critical evangelistic mission on earth and to go and sleep on a grave unconscious and doing nothing but waiting for the Lord's Return ? It's difficult to imagine that Paul would see benefit in this. Though this reasoning cannot be ruled out as yet.
@Avonia
I want to know the truth on the state of the dead.
Are you sure?
One part is understanding how we came into expression as we dropped down below the line of creation – Spark of God through vehicles of soul, mind, emotions, body. This will challenge your sense what "you" means. One philosophical system explaining some of this is theosophy, but it has its own dogma. Most Christians, and most Adventists, would not be comfortable with theosophy. Ellen White especially disliked it. So, I'm not sure this study makes sense for a lot of people
Another inquiry is understanding what happens as "you" move back up toward God. This can happen as each lower vehicle collapses, or this can happen as your center - or focus of consciousness - temporarily ascends.
dragNdrop, what most people are seeking when they ask for "truth" on this issues is an answer. If you want an answer, I would suggest reading the Bible and choosing "sleep" or "no sleep" based on your best sense of it all.
Last edited by Avonia; 26th October 2009 at 03:57 PM.
Would Paul see it as a benefit for him or for Jesus to leave the critical evangelistic mission on earth and to go and sleep on a grave unconscious and doing nothing but waiting for the Lord's Return ? It's difficult to imagine that Paul would see benefit in this.
Would Paul see it as a benefit for him or for Jesus to leave the critical evangelistic mission on earth and go to sleep in a grave conscious and doing nothing but waiting for the Lord's Return?
__________________ Don't believe me – BELIEVE YOUR BIBLE – BELIEVE GOD!
Would Paul see it as a benefit for him to leave the critical evangelistic mission on earth and to go and sleep on a grave unconscious and doing nothing but waiting for the Lord's Return ?
If Paul knew that he was only going to meet Christ at the end of time whether he dies today or in 50 years why he did not just focus on preaching the gospel without wishing death ? In fact if he knew that the only time to meet Jesus was in the end I'd imagine him praying for more years to live to serve Christ without entertaining the lovely thought of death.
My point is that conscious or not, Paul is removed from the evangelistic mission after his death, to wait in idleness until Chirst's return.
Originally Posted by dragNdrop
If Paul knew that he was only going to meet Christ at the end of time whether he dies today or in 50 years why he did not just focus on preaching the gospel without wishing death?
He certainly did focus on preaching the gospel, not for himself, but for those he ministered to.
Originally Posted by dragNdrop
In fact if he knew that the only time to meet Jesus was in the end I'd imagine him praying for more years to live to serve Christ without entertaining the lovely thought of death.
Paul's life in service to Christ was very difficult. You can read it the book of Acts how it was a life of toil, hardship, persecution, and struggle against his own flesh. Paul was only human, and certainly there was probably many a time he wished that life would end. His death would mean the end of his hardship.
Of course there's an excellent corrolary verse in Isaiah 38. Why did king Hezekiah plead with God for his life to be prolonged on earth, if he was to enter eternal bliss immediately at his death?
__________________ Don't believe me – BELIEVE YOUR BIBLE – BELIEVE GOD!
"Of course there's an excellent corrolary verse in Isaiah 38. Why did king Hezekiah plead with God for his life to be prolonged on earth, if he was to enter eternal bliss immediately at his death? "
Of course there's an excellent corrolary verse in Isaiah 38. Why did king Hezekiah plead with God for his life to be prolonged on earth, if he was to enter eternal bliss immediately at the next moment of consciousness. Christ's second coming ?
So this argument is null and does not give us any answer to the currwent subject.
"Paul's life in service to Christ was very difficult. You can read it the book of Acts how it was a life of toil, hardship, persecution, and struggle against his own flesh. Paul was only human, and certainly there was probably many a time he wished that life would end. His death would mean the end of his hardship."
This is a reasonable answer. I wish though that we could find more solid evidence on what Paul meant. What were his general view on this subject ?
I want to know the truth on the state of the dead.
Avonia has asked a valid question. I have never understood the heated debates that sometimes center around this subject. If a person were to misunderstand what happens to him when he dies, how would that misunderstanding negatively impact him while he is alive?
Although I know that this is a debate that others find fascinating, I've personally never seen the point of it . . . .
Linear Mode
