The doctrine of conciousness during death leads to the neglect of the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, which is essential to the gospel.
Although I am not a proponent of either position, I am curious to learn (1) why the traditional "Baptist" view of the subject negates the resurrection of the dead, or (2) why one's position on soul sleep (either for or against) would impact the gospel. Can you clarify?
Although I am not a proponent of either position, I am curious to learn (1) why the traditional "Baptist" view of the subject negates the resurrection of the dead, or (2) why one's position on soul sleep (either for or against) would impact the gospel. Can you clarify?
BFA
In your experience do those that teach consciousness during death put as much emphasis on the ressurection of the dead as those who do not? Is it not obvious as to why this is so? If the dead have already entered into eternal bliss or agony, then of what significance is the resurrection? What is the final judgement after Christ's return but a mere formality?
As to how this impacts the gospel, I have to clarify what the Gospel is about. It is about the Person of Christ and Kingdom of God. Christ died so that we could be saved from our sin, but why do we have to be saved from our sin? What does God have planned for us that our sin prevents us from getting? Inheritance of God's Kingdom! How do we inherit God's Kingdom? By being born again, by being resurrected in incorruption and immortality, or for those who are alive when He returns, by being changed to that nature in a twinking of an eye. Essential to the gospel is the truth that this world of sin will pass away one day, to be replaced by the Kingdom of God. The doctrine of consciousness during death turns hope away from God's coming Kingdom and toward an extra-dimensional "spirit world". Hope then rests on this age, when Satan rules the world, rather than the future reign of God.
Why do you think it is that most churches fail to understand such an important part of the gospel as the Kingdom of God? (If you doubt my assessment, try going into General Theology and start up a thread with the question "What is the Kingdom of God?" and see if you get anything resembling a consensus. I actually tried it once.) I am convinced that the major reason for this is belief in the immortality of the soul.
__________________ Don't believe me – BELIEVE YOUR BIBLE – BELIEVE GOD!
In your experience do those that teach consciousness during death put as much emphasis on the ressurection of the dead as those who do not? Is it not obvious as to why this is so? If the dead have already entered into eternal bliss or agony, then of what significance is the resurrection?
It seems that all groups believe in the resurrection of the body. The only difference that I've seen among Christian groups relates to differing views regarding the place where the soul goes when it is separated from the body. Personally, I see no reason to get overly concerned about that.
What is the final judgement after Christ's return but a mere formality?
For those who believe, it may be even less than that (unless you conclude that believers come into judgment).
As to how this impacts the gospel, I have to clarify what the Gospel is about. It is about the Person of Christ and Kingdom of God. Christ died so that we could be saved from our sin, but why do we have to be saved from our sin? What does God have planned for us that our sin prevents us from getting? Inheritance of God's Kingdom!How do we inherit God's Kingdom? By being born again, by being resurrected in incorruption and immortality, or for those who are alive when He returns, by being changed to that nature in a twinking of an eye.
I haven't seen either side of the debate questioning this point.
Essential to the gospel is the truth that this world of sin will pass away one day, to be replaced by the Kingdom of God. The doctrine of consciousness during death turns hope away from God's coming Kingdom and toward an extra-dimensional "spirit world". Hope then rests on this age, when Satan rules the world, rather than the future reign of God.
Is our hope built on any "age" or on the Person of Jesus Christ? I haven't seen how this debate destroys a man's ability to have the correct source of hope.
The doctrine of conciousness during death leads to the neglect of the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, which is essential to the gospel.
Originally Posted by SoldierOfTheKing
In your experience do those that teach consciousness during death put as much emphasis on the ressurection of the dead as those who do not? Is it not obvious as to why this is so? If the dead have already entered into eternal bliss or agony, then of what significance is the resurrection? What is the final judgement after Christ's return but a mere formality?
As to how this impacts the gospel, I have to clarify what the Gospel is about. It is about the Person of Christ and Kingdom of God. Christ died so that we could be saved from our sin, but why do we have to be saved from our sin? What does God have planned for us that our sin prevents us from getting? Inheritance of God's Kingdom! How do we inherit God's Kingdom? By being born again, by being resurrected in incorruption and immortality, or for those who are alive when He returns, by being changed to that nature in a twinking of an eye. Essential to the gospel is the truth that this world of sin will pass away one day, to be replaced by the Kingdom of God. The doctrine of consciousness during death turns hope away from God's coming Kingdom and toward an extra-dimensional "spirit world". Hope then rests on this age, when Satan rules the world, rather than the future reign of God.
In my experience, many Christians who teach consciousness during death do emphasize the resurrection of the dead. For example, the pastor at my current church (a Baptist church) preached on death this past Sunday, and he even quoted from 1 Corinthians 15 in talking about the resurrection.
__________________ Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:16-18)
Last edited by Sophia7; 3rd November 2009 at 03:23 PM.
It seems that all groups believe in the resurrection of the body. The only difference that I've seen among Christian groups relates to differing views regarding the place where the soul goes when it is separated from the body. Personally, I see no reason to get overly concerned about that.
Very few go so far as to deny the ressurection of the dead, that's true. The difference, though is whether salvation entails "going to heaven" or inheriting God's Kingdom. It has to do with what God's ultimate plan for humanity, the reason why Christ died. Any talk of salvation has to start with a definition of salvation.
Originally Posted by Byfaithalone1
Is our hope built on any "age" or on the Person of Jesus Christ?
Obviously I can't speak for yours, but mine is emphatically built on both. I said (and you said that you did not dispute) that the gospel is about the Person of Christ and the Kingdom of God.
__________________ Don't believe me – BELIEVE YOUR BIBLE – BELIEVE GOD!
Very few go so far as to deny the ressurection of the dead, that's true. The difference, though is whether salvation entails "going to heaven" or inheriting God's Kingdom. It has to do with what God's ultimate plan for humanity, the reason why Christ died. Any talk of salvation has to start with a definition of salvation.
Is this where salvation begins and ends? Upon what or Whom is our hope built? What are we saved from? What impact does it have on us today, or is the reward solely limited to a future reward?
I want to know the truth on the state of the dead.
Im glad to see that you're sincere in your request. It's my prayer that God will open up your eyes to His word.
Here is what Jesus taught on this subject. Consider the NLT version see if the KJV compares.
Mat 22:23That same day some Sadducees stepped forward-a group of Jews who say there is no resurrection after death. They posed this question: Mat 22:24"Teacher, Moses said, `If a man dies without children, his brother should marry the widow and have a child who will be the brother's heir.'[fn2] Mat 22:25Well, there were seven brothers. The oldest married and then died without children, so the second brother married the widow. Mat 22:26This brother also died without children, and the wife was married to the next brother, and so on until she had been the wife of each of them. Mat 22:27And then she also died. Mat 22:28So tell us, whose wife will she be in the resurrection? For she was the wife of all seven of them!" Mat 22:29Jesus replied, "Your problem is that you don't know the Scriptures, and you don't know the power of God. Mat 22:30For when the dead rise, they won't be married. They will be like the angels in heaven. Mat 22:31But now, as to whether there will be a resurrection of the dead-haven't you ever read about this in the Scriptures? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said,[fn3] Mat 22:32`I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'[fn4] So he is the God of the living, not the dead." Mat 22:33When the crowds heard him, they were impressed with his teaching. Mat 22:34But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees with his reply, they thought up a fresh question of their own to ask him.
It appear as a clear lesson from Jesus that God is being Abraham's God now. I believe Paul knows that too.
Jesus is saying that the resurrection is not for life on a renewed earth, having a perfect family life. It's to be in a spiritial place where time stands still and God is the center of our existance. (angels dont marry)
You can certainly look at it that way. Scripture often speaks of salvation in a future tense.
Upon what or Whom is our hope built?
Asked and answered. See the last two lines of my previous post. Upon the Person of Christ and the Kingdom of God. Salvation means inheritance in the Kingdom of God.
What are we saved from?
Sin.
What impact does it have on us today, or is the reward solely limited to a future reward?
Believing has an impact on us today certainly, but the real reward is yet to come.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. I Cor. 2:9
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:4
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2
Do you believe that you have the nature of God right now?
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. I Cor 15:52-53
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
I Timothy 6:15-16
Immortality, an attribute of divinity, is what those tho believe receive at Christ's return.
So you see, to look at the fullness of salvation as something that can be acheived in this life is to shoot so unbelieveably low.
It appear as a clear lesson from Jesus that God is being Abraham's God now. I believe Paul knows that too.
Nobody has disputed this, the question is whether Abraham is conscious right now.
Jesus is saying that the resurrection is not for life on a renewed earth, having a perfect family life.
The resurrection is for life in the Family of God, as children of God with His nature. What more perfect family life could there be than that?
It's to be in a spiritial place where time stands still and God is the center of our existance. (angels dont marry)
Could the earth be such a place if the kingdoms of this world gave way to the Kingdom of God?
__________________ Don't believe me – BELIEVE YOUR BIBLE – BELIEVE GOD!
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