Baptismal question

scriptures · #1 25th October 2009, 01:56 AM

In the days of Pastor Russell, two simple questions were asked:

Have you repented of sin with such restitution as you are able, and are you trusting in the merit of Christ's sacrifice for the forgiveness of your sins and the basis of your justification?
Have you made a full consecration of yourself with all the powers that you possess--talent, money, time, influence--all to the Lord, to be used faithfully in His service, even unto death?

scriptures · #2 25th October 2009, 01:58 AM

After the death of Pastor Russell and prior to the year 1985, the questions asked to baptismal candidates did not change much, although they were slightly revised. An example of the questions asked are found in the February 1st 1945 Watchtower:

Have you recognized yourself as a sinner and needing salvation from Jehovah God? and have you acknowledged that this salvation proceeds from Him and through his Ransomer Christ Jesus?
On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for redemption, have you consecrated yourself unreservedly to do the will of God henceforth as that will is revealed to you through Christ Jesus and through God’s Word as His holy spirit makes it plain? (page 44 - Subheading "Questions")

scriptures · #3 25th October 2009, 02:01 AM

However, as the years have gone by and the leadership behind the Watchtower have taken unto themselves certain privileges that rightfully belong to Christ Jesus, they have made drastic changes within the organization. Abusing their authority, and having ursurped the authority of Christ. By their actions they have asserted equal status with Jehovah God Himself. Yet, these changes came subtley and unnoticed by the rank and file members of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Some may ask for an example, and to that we ask, let's take a look at the baptismal questions and how they have drastically changed since 1985. There is no need to reproduce the original questions as they are quoted above, we do well to look at the new questions asked of baptismal candidates since 1985.

On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? (Watchtower June 1, 1985 pg. 30 par. 3,4.)

You will notice that the original questions and there slight revisions placed emphasis on one being a sinner and in need of a redeemer, that redeemer being Christ Jesus as a means of salvation. A simple and plain stated fact. Scripturally sound.

However, the new questions, (post 1985), are drastically revised. While emphasis in recognizing ones sinfulness in need of repentance is stressed, the atoning blood of Jesus is not. Instead, the emphsis is in recognizing ones association with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. As they are the "spirit-directed organization" mentioned.
Therefore, The candidate is NOT baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit, but in the name of the Watchtower, Bible and Tract Society. As there is no emphasis in whom to confess ones sins in order to gain forgiveness, there is no emphasis on accepting Jesus as one's personal savior, the ONLY name by which we gain salvation. Acts 4:12

procrastin8nturtle · #4 25th October 2009, 08:30 AM

The number one has pretty much stayed the same. The second has changed in wording, but as going through study now I see that by agreeing to the baptizm question number 2 from 1985 you are agreeing to all the things in question number 2 in the days of Brother Russell. For recognizing you are one of Jehovah God's witnesses you would Have made a full consecration of yourself with all the powers that you possess--talent, money, time, influence--all to the Lord, to be used faithfully in His service, even unto death.

I have a question. Are these two question you present asked before baptizm or while actually being baptized? Or during physical baptizm do they say in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit?

woden · #5 27th October 2009, 09:15 AM

"Scriptures" has shown in his post a breath-taking lack of understanding as to how Jehovah's organisation runs. First and foremost, it announces Jehovah's Kingdon, not the Society's. As the the privileges due to the Christ that the Society has taken to itself, an explantion or two are needed to make the case water tight. We are not substituting Jesus nor his blood shed for all for anyone else. We remain committed above anything else, to uphold God's sovereignty and preach His Kingdom to all without distinction. This is something other faiths fail to do. When God's day comes, just who exactly will be bloodguilty before Him?

woden · #6 27th October 2009, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by procrastin8nturtle

I have a question. Are these two question you present asked before baptizm or while actually being baptized? Or during physical baptizm do they say in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit?

This is something that is done during the talk that proceeds the Baptism. To make sure a person knows exactly what they are doing in relation to baptism, prior preparation is taken. We don't get baptised because of other's pressure or due to euphoria. We get baptised for the right reasons, which is to serve God and the Son more fully. Many, many years ago some would be baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. Because these expressions can have conoctations with false worship, the practice was discontinued.

procrastin8nturtle · #7 27th October 2009, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by woden

This is something that is done during the talk that proceeds the Baptism. To make sure a person knows exactly what they are doing in relation to baptism, prior preparation is taken. We don't get baptised because of other's pressure or due to euphoria. We get baptised for the right reasons, which is to serve God and the Son more fully. Many, many years ago some would be baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. Because these expressions can have conoctations with false worship, the practice was discontinued.

It did seem odd that those questions were asked at the physcial baptizm. I do remember at the convention, a moment set asside for the ones being baptized that day, to dicuss the commitment they are about to take. I do agree that when you are baptized a Jehovah's Witness you know exactly what you are getting into. The study before hand is very thorough. I do find it interesting that saying the Father Son and Holy Spirit are linked to false worship. I did not realize this.

The Gregorian · #8 28th October 2009, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by procrastin8nturtle

It did seem odd that those questions were asked at the physcial baptizm. I do remember at the convention, a moment set asside for the ones being baptized that day, to dicuss the commitment they are about to take. I do agree that when you are baptized a Jehovah's Witness you know exactly what you are getting into. The study before hand is very thorough. I do find it interesting that saying the Father Son and Holy Spirit are linked to false worship. I did not realize this.

See, I think this is one of the places where we've erred on the side of caution a bit too much. We're trying to stay so far from the edge, we fall off the other side.

Yes, many people misuse the verse talking about "baptising people in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit." People suggest that "the three are listed in the same sentence, therefore they're a trinity." ... in order to avoid the obviously false teaching of the trinity, the practice of using that expression as a whole is shyed away from to avoid confusion... However, the expression is still in the bible. Because some have twisted the scripture doesn't mean we should ignore it. The scripture itself isn't bad... only the misuse of that scripture.

I agree that the questions could be worded a bit better. However, the OP also exaggerates when he says " The candidate is NOT baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit, but in the name of the Watchtower, Bible and Tract Society."

You'll notice that in those questions the actual WBTS is never mentioned. Baptism identifies the person as one of Jehovah's witnesses. But the term is meant as "a servant of Jehovah" ... not as "A member of OUR congregation." Of course, being a servant of Jehovah is what our congregation is all about... but although the two terms are similar and overlap, one does not inherently mean the other. Also notice the wording "in association with God's spirit-directed organization." This is because being baptized is also your ordination as an ordained minister. Not asking this would be like any church ordaining a minister... but that minister not wanting to be in association with the church by which he is ordained.

But, it most definitely is not "baptizing people in the name of the WBTS" as some claim. (although, I agree, it could be worded much better)

procrastin8nturtle · #9 28th October 2009, 07:40 AM

I understand, thanks

scriptures · #10 1st November 2009, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by woden

"Scriptures" has shown in his post a breath-taking lack of understanding as to how Jehovah's organisation runs. First and foremost, it announces Jehovah's Kingdon, not the Society's. As the the privileges due to the Christ that the Society has taken to itself, an explantion or two are needed to make the case water tight. We are not substituting Jesus nor his blood shed for all for anyone else. We remain committed above anything else, to uphold God's sovereignty and preach His Kingdom to all without distinction. This is something other faiths fail to do. When God's day comes, just who exactly will be bloodguilty before Him?

The second question is about your identity as a member of an organized religion, that you have to obey all without questioning. Even things you don't actually agree with. It's all about joining a religion.