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  #21  
Unread 26th October 2009, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Servus Cordis Immaculātī Marīæ View Post
It was my understanding that the Vatican II documents called for an actual participation from the laity, not an active participation. This is an important distinction.

Regards,
Jon Paul.
From Sacrosanctum Concilium:

14. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy.

In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit; and therefore pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it, by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work. (N. 14)

It is a big deal.
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  #22  
Unread 26th October 2009, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gwendolyn View Post
From Sacrosanctum Concilium:

14. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy.

In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit; and therefore pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it, by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work. (N. 14)

It is a big deal.

The true meaning of “active participation”

Regards,
Jon Paul.
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  #23  
Unread 26th October 2009, 12:48 PM
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So are the models of our early faith, the liturgies the Church used, not a good example? Are the ways in which the faithful participate in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom wrong because they are actively engaged? It has been in use for at least 1600 years by our Eastern Catholic counterparts.

That article is biased. I mean no offense, but it is written by a person with an agenda. Active participation does not mean clapping hands or carrying things. But I think the early Church is an indispensible resource for us if we want to truly understand what the Church has in mind when she speaks of active participation. The article is one man's hypothesis about what the Church meant by "active participation" (ie, that it means silent participation but paying attention). Our history tells us otherwise - and I don't mean the history of the last 40 years.

Edit: Sometimes my thoughts got scattered. I forgot to say this: when I read those excerpts from Sacrosanctum Concilium, I am struck by the use of the word restoration. It seems to indicate a return to our traditions, or at least an honest attempt to draw upon them. I have a difficult time understanding how creating an altogether new liturgy is a reflection of restoration. This issue is an ungoing subject of study for me. I am very intersted in it.
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Last edited by Gwendolyn; 26th October 2009 at 01:03 PM.
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  #24  
Unread 26th October 2009, 08:36 PM
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So would a "dialogue"-style Tridentine High Mass in the hieratic vernacular [with the reverent pronouns of "Thou", "thee" and "thy" similar to the "Knott Missal," with the portions of the Altar Servers being sung by the whole of the parishioners be acceptable then] and Latin being retained?

See the Knott Missal:-----------> HERE <-----------------------
I should think such would better be in continuity with Holy Tradition and vastly more in keeping with the intent of the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council who merely intend the minor revision of the liturgical texts towards to this general direction.


The Novus Ordo was a "fabrication" in the words of Pope Benedict XVI. It is a stripped down, meagre, and bare-bones: divested of the most salient and obvious aspects of Catholic theology so as to be as "ecumenical" as possible, whilst retaining the required essentials for Eucharistic and liturgical validity.


It [the Novus Ordo Missae] is still the Mass, and the Mass is a very Holy and sublime thing. But it is hardly befitting of our Lord, when the Novus Ordo Missae resembles a heretical service of Luther's own devices rather than the reverent and unabashedly Catholic and sublime liturgy that for centuries Catholics [especially the saints] knew and loved, the venerable and holy Tridentine Mass.
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  #25  
Unread 26th October 2009, 09:11 PM
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She's an angry one eh
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  #26  
Unread 27th October 2009, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Turkleton View Post
She's an angry one eh
Is that s'posed to mean something?
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  #27  
Unread 27th October 2009, 01:10 AM
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Hi Gwendoyln,

This isn't a leading question at all, I am honestly interested, but what is your idea of active participation in the Mass?

Blessings,

Steve
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  #28  
Unread 27th October 2009, 09:18 AM
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When I think of how the Tridentine Mass is held in reverence by a small number of conservative Catholics, all I can think about is St. Paul sitting around a table in Lydia's house with all her slaves gathered around her, breaking bread and saying, "Do this in memory of me."

Now THAT was sacred and reverent.

I know a former prisoner of war who would gather with a priest and fellow prisoners, bringing whatever small scraps and crumbs they could find, furtively, away from the guards' range of vision, whispering quiet prayers and finding strength.

Now THAT was sacred and reverent.

The reverence comes from the heart, not the stained glass windows, incense, organ music, etc.

The changes in the Mass were meant to bring the Mass closer to the one celebrated with Lydia and her slaves, not to make it more Protestant.
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  #29  
Unread 27th October 2009, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhamiel View Post
why is this such a fuss?
i mean baptists have website after website trying to get Catholics to leave the Church, evangelicals have books about the "truth about the Roman Catholic Church"
But for the last couple of decades Anglicans and Catholics have had generally mutually respectful relationships - at least in England. To those who have served on ARCIC it is bound to feel like a stab in the back. To Canterbury, because of the way it has been presented, it is bound feel like a kick from behind rather than a pastoral offer to those struggling to find a continuing place for themselves in the communion.

And, of course, there are plenty from all quarters, whether liberal or conservative, likely to go, likely to stay, or already part of Rome - and the media itself - looking to sensationalise and point score.
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