God doesn't love every man, woman, and child that ever existed.

Eph4:26 · #1 24th October 2009, 08:16 AM

It is universally assumed that the God of the Bible loves every man, woman, and child that ever existed. Within this topic, I would like to spend some time outlining the popular verses leading to that assumption and explain why they don't mean what people think they do.

Perhaps the easiest one to debunk is 2 Peter 3:9.

I'll be using the Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

2 Peter 3:9:

The Lord is not slack
concerning his promise, as
some men count slackness; but
is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should
perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The context of the chapter is Peter making a distinction between the scoffers (v. 3) and the believers (v. 9). The context is an Us vs. Them, not God loves every man, woman, child that ever lived.

Eph4:26 · #2 24th October 2009, 08:21 AM

Before proceeding, I need to address the English word 'all'.

If my son and daughter are playing in the park with the neighbor kids. I open the door and yell 'Dinner's ready'! Do all the children playing at the park hear my voice? Do all the children respond to my call?

The answer to the first 'all' is yes.
The answer to the second 'all' is no.

What I have just done is present a simple analogy of the difference between Sufficient and Efficacious Grace. The desired effect of me calling my children, and no one else, is that they came home for dinner.

Sufficient Grace -
Being as much as is needed. (Christ dying for 'all' mankind)

Efficacious Grace-
Producing or capable of producing a desired effect. (He calls His Elect Family to Him)

Emmy · #3 24th October 2009, 04:39 PM

Dear Eph4:26. God is LOVE, and He loves us as our Heavenly Father. God woos us to the very last, and if we do not want His Love, and God does not force, or coerce us, what can be done?? Jesus told us of a place in Outer Darkness, without God`s Love or Light, where there can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth. I believe it is because those poor souls there, realise too late the grave mistake they made. As for your example of the father who calls all his children to come in, that could never be God calling. God is everywhere, and calls ALL His children. But God told us, "Whosoever will may come." I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Jaws13 · #4 24th October 2009, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Eph4:26

It is universally assumed that the God of the Bible loves every man, woman, and child that ever existed. Within this topic, I would like to spend some time outlining the popular verses leading to that assumption and explain why they don't mean what people think they do.

Perhaps the easiest one to debunk is 2 Peter 3:9.

I'll be using the Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

2 Peter 3:9:

The Lord is not slack
concerning his promise, as
some men count slackness; but
is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should
perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The context of the chapter is Peter making a distinction between the scoffers (v. 3) and the believers (v. 9). The context is an Us vs. Them, not God loves every man, woman, child that ever lived.

Pointing out the fallen nature of people and that we have to fight against this nature in now way is unloving. You have a heavy burden here, I hope you are up to the challenge.

Tavita · #5 25th October 2009, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by Eph4:26

Before proceeding, I need to address the English word 'all'.

If my son and daughter are playing in the park with the neighbor kids. I open the door and yell 'Dinner's ready'! Do all the children playing at the park hear my voice? Do all the children respond to my call?

The answer to the first 'all' is yes.
The answer to the second 'all' is no.

What I have just done is present a simple analogy of the difference between Sufficient and Efficacious Grace. The desired effect of me calling my children, and no one else, is that they came home for dinner.

Sufficient Grace -
Being as much as is needed. (Christ dying for 'all' mankind)

Efficacious Grace-
Producing or capable of producing a desired effect. (He calls His Elect Family to Him)

Ah, but the English word 'all' is a translation from the Greek, 'pas', which means..

Thayer's Greek Definitions

1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types (there is only one type of mankind)

Strong's Greek Lexicon

including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:-all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

It apparently doesn't mean 'some of', or 'just enough as needed'.

itisdeliciouscake · #6 25th October 2009, 01:03 AM

boy are you off

doesn't the sun come up every day?

wayseer · #7 25th October 2009, 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by Eph4:26

Before proceeding, I need to address the English word 'all'.
[color=Blue]
If my son and daughter are playing in the park with the neighbor kids. I open the door and yell 'Dinner's ready'! Do all the children playing at the park hear my voice? Do all the children respond to my call?

The answer to the first 'all' is yes.
The answer to the second 'all' is no.

Cute. So now explain how it is that only 'some' respond. Unless you are prepared to make that explanation I doubt you will have anything useful to contribute.

Eph4:26 · #8 25th October 2009, 07:58 AM

Dear Emmy: Your citation of 'God is LOVE' is not unconditional, nor can it be used to 'prove' God loves every man, woman, child that ever lived.

I'm going to try to make an overly simplified algebraic equation and provide an example where God's love in the Bible can be viewed as conditional:

1 John 4:8:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

The English word love in the original Greek text is Agape (ag-ah'-pay). It does not mean to have affection for.

Same word as in 2 John 6 "this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments"

God = Love.
Love = obeying the commandments.

Rev. 3:19
'Those whom I love (Phileo), I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

If God, as the word is used in the original Greek text (Theos), means magistrate, then He only has affection (phileo) to those that obey His Laws.

An example . . .

As a citizen of the USA, I have the right to drive on the streets of this country. But that right is conditional. I can not pull out of my drive way and proceed to drive down the left side of the road. The Law of the land will catch up with me very quickly and either give me a ticket, or I'll get hit by oncoming traffic.

Originally Posted by Emmy

. . . But God told us, "Whosoever will may come." I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Your quote is not in the Bible, it is a theology not consistent with what the Bible teaches.

Eph4:26 · #9 25th October 2009, 08:23 AM

Tavita, your citation's of Thayer's and Strong's are technically accurate. However, they don't provide Biblical content.

Allow me to explain,
The best example in the Bible where God loved a particular 'all' is where Paul compares God's love to a husband loving his wife (singular) and no one else Ephesians 5:21-33

The 'all' men (or what Thayer's would describe as 'collectively', 'some of all types') is not mankind, but a chosen gentile few that God called. I could go on in greater detail, if you like.

Eph4:26 · #10 25th October 2009, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by itisdeliciouscake

boy are you off

doesn't the sun come up every day?

Your cryptic question is lost on me. Would you like to explain?