God loves those who experience His Presence in the next life as hell. God is love.
We have to be very careful to read statements of God "hating" people in a way "worthy of God" as Origen would say. It doesn't imply that the passion of hatred has afflicted God and he no longer loves a particular person. To use the word "hate" in such a manner is a condescension on Gods part to express certain truths in a way humans can comprehend... speaking in a human manner to bring people to the knowledge of what actions or behaviors are prohibited by God, etc. It doesn't mean that God literally hates people.
"What God has allowed to be said of himself in the Bible is, for Ephrem, a primary source for any human knowledge of God. The 'names' of God and the various types and symbols in Scripture constitute meeting points between God and humanity: God in his divine condescension has lowered Himself to the level of human understanding. From the human side, if advantage is to be taken of this opportunity, offered by God, of a way towards knowledge of Himself, two things are essential,... in the first place we must not make the ungrateful mistake of taking the names and metaphors used by God in Scripture literaly...
Ephrem in his role as theologian, is naturally primarily interesting in penetrating to the interior meaning of Scripture, a realm explored by the eye of discernment (purshana) and this inner eye of faith. Indeed he stresses that to stop at Scriptures outward statements about God and to take them literally is both dangerous- in that it will lead to misconceptions about Gods nature- and at the same time a sign of utter ingratitude for, and misunderstanding of Gods condescension in allowing himself to be spoken of in human language at all.
Saint Ephrem the Syrian states:
If someone concentrates his attention
solely on the metaphors used of God's majesty,
he abuses and misrepresents that majesty
by means of those metaphors
with which God has clothed Himself for humanities
own benefit,
and he is ungrateful to that Grace
which has bent down its stature to the level of human
childishness;
even though God has nothing in common with it.
He clothed Himself in the likeness of humanity
in order to bring humanity to the likeness of Himself.
Does He love those being roasted in the eternal fires of hell???
Those who we think were condemned to the 'fires of hell' are probably having a right old laugh at us down here below struggling to imagine a who God can love everybody without putting anyone on a self-righteous trip at the expense of others.
__________________ Not all those who wander are lost
Those who we think were condemned to the 'fires of hell' are probably having a right old laugh at us down here below. . . But I was of the opinion that God's Grace was available for all . . . you analogy demonstrates a rather hard nose judicial judge . . . Is that an analogy of your God(?)
Your statements that I've reprinted indicates to me that you need to keep studying -- I encourage you to do so. What I'm attempting to do, in part, is to show that the God of the Bible contradicts the secular humanist society (pagan) gods that self wills everyone to heaven.
. . . If vs. 3 (of 2 Peter 3) is relevant, then quote it to show how it is relevant.
2 Peter 3:3-9
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with us, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The context of 2 Peter 3:3-9 making a distinction between the scoffers (v. 3) and the believers (v. 9) with respects to the coming of the Lord (v. 4). The context is an Us vs. Them. Not that God loves every man, woman, child that ever lived.
Your statements that I've reprinted indicates to me that you need to keep studying -- I encourage you to do so. What I'm attempting to do, in part, is to show that the God of the Bible contradicts the secular humanist society (pagan) gods that self wills everyone to heaven.
You are patronizing me - give it a break.
I know what you are attempting to do - prove that anyone who does not believe in the same way as you do is going to hell - which has nothing to do with secular society but has more to do with your own mind.
__________________ Not all those who wander are lost
I dont see 2 Peter 3:3-9 stating anything to the effect that God doesn't love the scoffers as well. He doesn't want anyone to perish because he loves everyone. If they do perish it will not be due to God having a lack of love for them nor will it imply that He doesn't love them.
Christos Anesti . . . please allow me to explain why 2 Peter 3:3-9 doesn't mean God loves everyone. As stated earlier in this thread, God's love is conditional:
1 John 4:8:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
The English word love in the original Greek text is Agape (ag-ah'-pay). It does not mean to have affection for.
Same word as in 2 John 6 "this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments"
God = Love.
Love = obeying the commandments.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance #5368:
"From philos; to be a friend to (fond of (an individual or an object)), i.e. Have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling; while agapao is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety: the two thus stand related very much as. . .the former being chiefly of the heart and the latter of the head)" Strong's Greek Dictionary: 5368. phileó
Rev. 3:19
'Those whom I love (Phileo), I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
If God, as the word is used in the original Greek text (Theos), means magistrate, then He only has affection (phileo) to those that obey His Laws.
Let's look at the word repent in '. . . but everyone (scoffers) to come to repentance.' 2 Peter 3:9. It comes from the greek word metaroian. It is commonly ment to 'turn and think differently'.
Now the condition for which the scoffers can be part of God's love is that they repent 'turn and think differently' and believe in the Lord's 2nd coming.
Repentance proceeds forgiveness 100% of the time.
Last edited by Eph4:26; 30th October 2009 at 07:29 AM.
Repentance allows us to more fully participate in the Love of God. It's not that God stops loving and then starts loving again later . That would imply mutability and change in God. That love is always there regardless of if we repent or not. The change is on our part in relation to Gods omnipresent love and not in God Himself.
let my try to explain it this way (though obviously its not a perfect analogy)... imagine I throw out a gift to everyone in the whole world every second and one person turns their back and wont pick up the gift I gave them . Despite this I continue to throw them gifts which they continue to reject. That wouldn't imply that I'm not throwing the person a gift (in this story the gift being analogous with love) merely that the person in question decided to reject it. You couldn't imply from this that I was no longer showering the person with gifts (love) .
Last edited by Christos Anesti; 30th October 2009 at 11:15 AM.
Christos Anesti . . .
I'm having a difficult time understanding your theological analogy. If you would be so kind as to explain from where in the Bible you come to think of 'the gift being analogous with love', I'd like to examine it further.
Your statements that I've reprinted indicates to me that you need to keep studying -- I encourage you to do so. What I'm attempting to do, in part, is to show that the God of the Bible contradicts the secular humanist society (pagan) gods that self wills everyone to heaven.
Just because not everyone may 'go to heaven', doesn't mean to say that God does not love every man woman or child that has ever existed. I don't understand why you seem to think that that is the case.
If I have three children and I say we're all going for a trip to the seaside...if one of them says he doesn't want to go, and will not be persuaded - does that mean I love him any the less, if I don't take him? (As long as he's being looked after at home, I hasten to add). I would surely be wishing he would come, if I was sure he would enjoy it.
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