| Christian Apologetics A forum to discuss the systematic defense of the Christian belief system with other Christians. |
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28th October 2009, 06:11 AM
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Reps: 103,712,394,032,025,664 (power: 103,712,394,032,030) | | In the original greek text, the words 'everyone else' doesn't exist.
None the less, the word love is not phileo - to have affection for. It is the word agape. Strong's concordance defines it as, "(agape) is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety:" Strong's Greek Dictionary: 5368. phileó
I like to think of the differences as one is to the heart (phileo) where as the other is to the head (agape).
In keeping with the principle of 'love your enemy', 'love all' of 1 Thess. 3:12; it is a call for the Christian to live at a higher standard than those that God has not given His gifts to.
With respects to Tavita's reprinting of the Concise Strong's and Thayer's definitions of 'love'. IMHO, the brevity of the citation fails to grasp the richness of meaning or substance the original greek words agape and phileo represent. |
28th October 2009, 07:51 AM
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Reps: 294,981,184,141,909,888 (power: 294,981,184,141,920) | | Originally Posted by Eph4:26  Pardon me for a moment as I reprint my analogy.
If my son and daughter are playing in the park with the neighbor kids. I open the door and yell 'Dinner's ready'! Do all the children playing at the park hear my voice? Do all the children respond to my call?
The answer to the first 'all' is yes.
The answer to the second 'all' is no.
What I have just done is present a simple analogy of the difference between Sufficient and Efficacious Grace. The desired effect of me calling my children, and no one else, is that they came home for dinner.
Sufficient Grace -
Being as much as is needed. (Christ dying for 'all' mankind)
Efficacious Grace-
Producing or capable of producing a desired effect. (He calls His Elect Family to Him)
If I understand your implication correctly, it is not by their free-will that they do not come when I call. The effect of my voice being heard is that it is irresistibly draws in my children (John 6:44-45) and no one else.
But I was of the opinion that God's Grace was available for all.
I suggest you analogy demonstrates a rather hard nose judicial judge sitting in a 18th century court ticking off names on who is going to be deported to Australia on the next ship. Is that an analogy of your God?
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28th October 2009, 08:21 AM
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I don't know.
Does He love those being roasted in the eternal fires of hell???
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28th October 2009, 08:54 AM
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Reps: 24,160,000,787,179,980 (power: 24,160,000,787,193) | | Originally Posted by Eph4:26
With respects to Tavita's reprinting of the Concise Strong's and Thayer's definitions of 'love'. IMHO, the brevity of the citation fails to grasp the richness of meaning or substance the original greek words agape and phileo represent.
I only reprinted them because you didn't quote the FULL RICH meanings of the Greek. You only posted what you wanted them to say to agree with YOUR definition of what God's love is and who He loves and who He apparently doesn't love.
I'm so truly sorry you see God in that perspective.
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Christina Wing ~ If love has limits, then it's not love. Love goes where there are no bounds, no space, no limits. There is no line drawn that love won't blow through it. That's His heart, to love all with no limits.
Dan Sheridan ~ God is a Savior, not a probation officer.
Mike Williams ~ Redemption and only redemption redeems the human spirit. The knowledge and only the knowledge of that redemption saves the human soul. |
28th October 2009, 08:56 AM
| | beside quiet waters He restores my soul..
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Reps: 24,160,000,787,179,980 (power: 24,160,000,787,193) | | Originally Posted by Gary51 Does God love every person that ever existed.
I don't know.
Does He love those being roasted in the eternal fires of hell???
Apparently not Gary, He hates 99% of humanity...
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Christina Wing ~ If love has limits, then it's not love. Love goes where there are no bounds, no space, no limits. There is no line drawn that love won't blow through it. That's His heart, to love all with no limits.
Dan Sheridan ~ God is a Savior, not a probation officer.
Mike Williams ~ Redemption and only redemption redeems the human spirit. The knowledge and only the knowledge of that redemption saves the human soul. |
28th October 2009, 02:35 PM
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Reps: 416,617,700,174,524,864 (power: 416,617,700,174,543) | | Originally Posted by Tavita Apparently not Gary, He hates 99% of humanity...
Tativa, I'm quite sure you know better than to give appeals to emotion in an apologetics forum. Try something more logical rather than an attempt at a guilt trip.
__________________ Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah
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dir="ltr"> "Offense" is something TAKEN. No one MAKES anyone feel anything. IF we are offended by something, we CHOSE to be offended by it...
But I think that OFTEN, people confuse discussion with fighting. Disagreeing is not personal, it is not an attack, it is not disrespectful or flaming, it is not offensive per se. It ONLY means, "I disagree." Nothing more. Nothing less. It suggests NO emotional response whatsoever.
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28th October 2009, 02:48 PM
|  | Senior Contributor
| | Join Date: 21st August 2003 Location: Eastern Time Zone
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Reps: 469,803,519,634,706,496 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Eph4:26 It is universally assumed that the God of the Bible loves every man, woman, and child that ever existed. Within this topic, I would like to spend some time outlining the popular verses leading to that assumption and explain why they don't mean what people think they do.
Perhaps the easiest one to debunk is 2 Peter 3:9.
I'll be using the Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software
2 Peter 3:9:
The Lord is not slack
concerning his promise, as
some men count slackness; but
is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should
perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The context of the chapter is Peter making a distinction between the scoffers (v. 3) and the believers (v. 9). The context is an Us vs. Them, not God loves every man, woman, child that ever lived. Your first error is you fail to quote this in context. If vs. 3 is relevant, then quote it to show how it is relevant. Evidently your assumptions/presuppositions are Calvinistic. |
28th October 2009, 02:59 PM
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Reps: 308,822,204,731,144,320 (power: 308,822,204,731,149) | | Originally Posted by Eph4:26 Pardon me for a moment as I reprint my analogy.
If my son and daughter are playing in the park with the neighbor kids. I open the door and yell 'Dinner's ready'! Do all the children playing at the park hear my voice? Do all the children respond to my call?
The answer to the first 'all' is yes.
The answer to the second 'all' is no.
What I have just done is present a simple analogy of the difference between Sufficient and Efficacious Grace. The desired effect of me calling my children, and no one else, is that they came home for dinner.
Sufficient Grace -
Being as much as is needed. (Christ dying for 'all' mankind)
Efficacious Grace-
Producing or capable of producing a desired effect. (He calls His Elect Family to Him)
If I understand your implication correctly, it is not by their free-will that they do not come when I call. The effect of my voice being heard is that it is irresistibly draws in my children (John 6:44-45) and no one else.
So the family becomes a dictatorship of grace.
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Christ didn't die for peace in heaven - He died for peace on earth.
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28th October 2009, 05:52 PM
| | beside quiet waters He restores my soul..
| | Join Date: 20th September 2004 Location: Singleton NSW
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Reps: 24,160,000,787,179,980 (power: 24,160,000,787,193) | | Originally Posted by Godschild87 Tativa, I'm quite sure you know better than to give appeals to emotion in an apologetics forum. Try something more logical rather than an attempt at a guilt trip.
Oh my gosh... listen to you!! LOL!
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Christina Wing ~ If love has limits, then it's not love. Love goes where there are no bounds, no space, no limits. There is no line drawn that love won't blow through it. That's His heart, to love all with no limits.
Dan Sheridan ~ God is a Savior, not a probation officer.
Mike Williams ~ Redemption and only redemption redeems the human spirit. The knowledge and only the knowledge of that redemption saves the human soul. |
28th October 2009, 06:03 PM
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Reps: 416,617,700,174,524,864 (power: 416,617,700,174,543) | | Originally Posted by Tavita Oh my gosh... listen to you!! LOL!
Laughing at those who disagree with you isn't going to make your point stronger, especially not when your point is an emotional one.
__________________ Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah
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dir="ltr"> "Offense" is something TAKEN. No one MAKES anyone feel anything. IF we are offended by something, we CHOSE to be offended by it...
But I think that OFTEN, people confuse discussion with fighting. Disagreeing is not personal, it is not an attack, it is not disrespectful or flaming, it is not offensive per se. It ONLY means, "I disagree." Nothing more. Nothing less. It suggests NO emotional response whatsoever.
NO ONE is mandated to agree with anyone. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. | | |
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