God doesn't love every man, woman, and child that ever existed.

wayseer · #21 27th October 2009, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by Tavita

Actually, I'd like to know where it says in the scriptures that God doesn't love those who don't keep His commandments.

Excellent point. If God is not involved with ALL of creation then he is no longer God but something else.

LiturgyInDMinor · #22 27th October 2009, 03:55 AM

**subscribes**

catzrfluffy · #23 27th October 2009, 05:14 AM

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)

"This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins." (1 John 4:10)

Even when we didn't obey, God still loved us. And even when we don't obey now, God loves us still. We obey because of the love God has for us, "We love because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19)

How could Paul write,

"May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you." (1 Thessalonians 3:12)

if God didn't love them also?

How can God tell us to love others and everyone else, if He doesn't love them aswell?

"And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. " (Ephesians 3:17-19)

Can we grasp the height and the width and the length and the depth of the love of Christ?
I think not fully, "For we know in part and we prophesy in part," (1 Cor. 13:9) it is too big to comprehend. How can such an infinite love be finite? How can something so high and wide and long and deep have a limit, how can it fill only incompletely, "since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain him?" (2 Chronicles 2:6)

And the famous:
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:35-39)

Eph4:26 · #24 27th October 2009, 07:11 AM

Pardon me for a moment as I reprint my analogy.

If my son and daughter are playing in the park with the neighbor kids. I open the door and yell 'Dinner's ready'! Do all the children playing at the park hear my voice? Do all the children respond to my call?

The answer to the first 'all' is yes.
The answer to the second 'all' is no.

What I have just done is present a simple analogy of the difference between Sufficient and Efficacious Grace. The desired effect of me calling my children, and no one else, is that they came home for dinner.

Sufficient Grace -
Being as much as is needed. (Christ dying for 'all' mankind)

Efficacious Grace-
Producing or capable of producing a desired effect. (He calls His Elect Family to Him)

Originally Posted by wayseer

. . . so how come all the kids in the street did not come when you called?

If I understand your implication correctly, it is not by their free-will that they do not come when I call. The effect of my voice being heard is that it is irresistibly draws in my children (John 6:44-45) and no one else.

Eph4:26 · #25 27th October 2009, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Tavita

(love in Matt. 5:44) actually does mean to have affection for, as well as love being a doing word...

Please bear with me as I get technical in my objection to your claim that the ambiguous English word love in Matt. 5:44 can be interpreted as a 'feeling' or 'to be fond of'.

Matt. 5:44 - "But I say to you, love your enemies

love - agapaō

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance #25:

Perhaps from agan (much); to love (in a social or moral sense)

For example,

John 14:31

But that the world may know that I love (agape) the Father, and as the Father commanded me, even so I do. Arise, let us go from here.

As pointed out several times now, Love = doing the commandments of God.

Compare agape to philos.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance #5368:

"From philos; to be a friend to (fond of (an individual or an object)), i.e. Have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling; while agapao is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety: the two thus stand related very much as ethelo and boulomai, or as thumos and nous respectively; the former being chiefly of the heart and the latter of the head); specially, to kiss (as a mark of tenderness) -- kiss, love." Strong's Greek Dictionary: 5368. phileó

An example where philo is used:

John 21:15
So when they had eaten their breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love (philo) me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I have affection for you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."

Rev. 3:19
As many as I love (philo) I rebuke and chasten be zealous therefore and repent

I hope I've made myself clearer that agape and philo have been ambiguously translated into our English word love.

Eph4:26 · #26 27th October 2009, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Tavita
I'd like to know where it says in the scriptures that God doesn't love those who don't keep His commandments.

Originally Posted by wayseer

Excellent point.

Would you both agree that hate is the opposite of love?

If so, God doesn't love those that don't keep his commandments (Psalm 5:5).

Eph4:26 · #27 27th October 2009, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by catzrfluffy

How could Paul write,

"May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you." (1 Thessalonians 3:12)

if God didn't love them also?

The 'them' that you are referring to is '. .. the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ' (1 Thess. 1:1).

Tavita · #28 27th October 2009, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Eph4:26

Would you both agree that hate is the opposite of love?

Speaking for myself, I don't believe hate to be the opposite of love, but indifference, apathy, being lukewarm...

Tavita · #29 27th October 2009, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Eph4:26

Please bear with me as I get technical in my objection to your claim that the ambiguous English word love in Matt. 5:44 can be interpreted as a 'feeling' or 'to be fond of'.

Matt. 5:44 - "But I say to you, love your enemies

love - agapaō

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance #25:

Perhaps from agan (much); to love (in a social or moral sense)

For example,

John 14:31

But that the world may know that I love (agape) the Father, and as the Father commanded me, even so I do. Arise, let us go from here.

Alrighty then (I do like technical), I don't know which Strong's you have but mine says this...

The word 'love' in Matt 5:44 -
Strong's G25
agapaō; of unc. or.; to love: - beloved (8), felt a love for (1), love (1), love (75), loved (38), loves (20).

Thayer's G25
agapao;
1) of persons
1a) to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
2) of things
2a) to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing

As pointed out several times now, Love = doing the commandments of God.

Yes, love is a doing word, not just in words only, and means that WE show our love FOR Him by following His commandments... not the other way round.

Compare agape to philos.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance #5368:

"From philos; to be a friend to (fond of (an individual or an object)), i.e. Have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling; while agapao is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety: the two thus stand related very much as ethelo and boulomai, or as thumos and nous respectively; the former being chiefly of the heart and the latter of the head); specially, to kiss (as a mark of tenderness) -- kiss, love." Strong's Greek Dictionary: 5368. phileó

An example where philo is used:

John 21:15
So when they had eaten their breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love (philo) me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I have affection for you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."

Rev. 3:19
As many as I love (philo) I rebuke and chasten be zealous therefore and repent

I hope I've made myself clearer that agape and philo have been ambiguously translated into our English word love.

Well, I'm glad you know there are different Greek words for love, however, God's love is agape, it's a higher love and one that humans don't possess unless the love (agape) of God is shed abroad in the heart.

1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

The love in 'God IS love' is...

Strong's
G26
from <0025>; love, i.e. affection or benevolence; specially (plural) a love-feast:-(feast of) charity([-ably]), dear, love.

Thayer's
G26
1) brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence
2) love feasts

God just can't help Himself mate... He loves because that's who He is.
Even in His anger, His judgments, His wrath.. they are all part of His love.

catzrfluffy · #30 27th October 2009, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Eph4:26

The 'them' that you are referring to is '. .. the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ' (1 Thess. 1:1).

But,

"May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you." (1 Thess. 3:12)

each other = church of Thessalonica
everyone else = everyone else