This is not to say there is no sense in which limitation may be ascribed to the atonement. While the grace it provided is sufficient to pay for the sins of all men, this grace is not made efficacious (put into effect) in the case of everyone.
The "sufficient for all, efficient for some" teaching always reminds me of the old Secret anti-perspirant commercial's catchphrase: "Strong enough for a man, but made for a woman."
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Last edited by chaela; 7th November 2009 at 03:26 PM.
The Commandments?...That's only a small part of how I love my Beloved God. I also love God when I love His Creation. When I love His Love I love god. I Love God's appearance when I see the twinkle in the eyes of my grandchildren when they laugh and show love to me. I Love God when I see others helping those in need, some call it compassion. Sometimes watching compassion from others touches my heart so deeply the Love I feel causes me to cry. Somehow, in those tears, I love God even more during those times. I love God when I reach out with a deep heart centered "Thank You" directed to my Beloved God. I love God when I get up each morning because of the life He has given me. I love God when my wife and I enjoy each others company. Somehow that brings out many "Thank You's" to my Beloved God.
God is life itself. Thank You God!!
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The Universe is a communion of subjects, not a collection of objects - Thomas Berry
The most excellent being in the universe is the universe itself. - Thomas Berry
The English word 'all' does not mean every man, woman, and child that ever lived.
However, “the world” [ho kosmos] means every person in the world as in John 3:16, “For God so loved THE WORLD . . .”
OzSpen . . . . Thank you for supporting my argument that God loves the believers only and doesn't love ever man, woman, child that ever lived.
You make a false statement about my theology. I absolutely DID NOT support the unbiblical doctrine that God only loves the elect. I showed you that I John was speaking of love of believers and love that leads to obedience to Christ.
In spite of your Calvinism inventing it, the Bible does not support limited atonement as I John 2:2 clearly states,
He [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD (ESV).
You state:
Please allow me to make myself clear . . . . " I am promoting the Bible's teaching on limited atonement where God only loves the Elect."
As I John 2:2 makes very clear, you are promoting an unbiblical doctrine of limited atonement.
See also John 1:29- "The next day he [John the Baptist] saw him [Jesus] coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of THE WORLD!"
OzSpen . . . I do appreciate your thoughtful reply. I have a question for you before I wish to proceed. When you quote John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, and John 1:29 -- am I correct in understanding that you belief is that God loves every man, woman, and child that ever lived with no conditions placed on them inorder to receive salvation?
OzSpen . . . I do appreciate your thoughtful reply. I have a question for you before I wish to proceed. When you quote John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, and John 1:29 -- am I correct in understanding that you belief is that God loves every man, woman, and child that ever lived with no conditions placed on them inorder to receive salvation?
That is a loaded question. What 'conditions' did you have in mind? What do you mean by 'salvation'?
__________________ Not all those who wander are lost
That is a loaded question. What 'conditions' did you have in mind? What do you mean by 'salvation'?
By conditions I mean, those that believe that because God 'so loved the world' that they don't have to do anything in return and that when they die, their spirit becomes one with God.
I don't believe there are any conditions we need to meet to receive God's love, because as Romans 5:8 says, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
And salvation is never a result of works but works is always a result of true salvation, because any heart that truly has Jesus in it can not go on sinning. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." (1 John 3:9)
So while we do not need do anything to receive God's love or salvation, (both are received by grace) as a consequence of genuine salvation works will result because the Spirit lives in us and gives us new desires. "This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." (1 John 2:5-6)
__________________ "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)
It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way.
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.
(Proverbs 18:2, 19:2)
OzSpen . . . I do appreciate your thoughtful reply. I have a question for you before I wish to proceed. When you quote John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, and John 1:29 -- am I correct in understanding that you belief is that God loves every man, woman, and child that ever lived with no conditions placed on them inorder to receive salvation?
I believe exactly what these verses teach:
God loved the world (John 3:16);
Christ's death was a propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2);
The Lamb of God (Jesus) takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29).
I do not believe in limited atonement because it is contrary to the teaching of these verses.
What "conditions" are placed on anybody in order to receive salvation? Acts 16 provides a clear example when the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas, "What must I do to be saved?" Their response is the same condition for us today, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household" (vv. 30-31).
Last edited by OzSpen; 8th November 2009 at 04:04 PM.
I don't believe there are any conditions we need to meet to receive God's love, because as Romans 5:8 says, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
By conditions I mean, those that believe that because God 'so loved the world' that they don't have to do anything in return and that when they die, their spirit becomes one with God.
But there you have it - there is a 'condition' - one MUST first believe.
__________________ Not all those who wander are lost
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