God doesn't love every man, woman, and child that ever existed.

Tavita · #**101** 5th November 2009, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by wayseer

Accountable for what exactly?

These stories are stuff of 1st century beliefs where it was customary to scare people into submission. The big man in the sky with an even bigger ledger keeping tabs on everyone just wont wash in the 21st century. Christianity has to try something new - like love and respect.

2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled (past tense) us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 namely, that ~ God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Seems to me the whole world has ALREADY been reconciled to God... wonder why He did that?... could it be LOVE?

tansy · #**102** 5th November 2009, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by wayseer

Accountable for what exactly?

These stories are stuff of 1st century beliefs where it was customary to scare people into submission. The big man in the sky with an even bigger ledger keeping tabs on everyone just wont wash in the 21st century. Christianity has to try something new - like love and respect.

I don't think the judgement is like you've just suggested..and yes, maybe accountability is not quite the way to look at it...I was trying to find ways to counter what Eph4 was saying.
I certainly agree that threats and fear-mongering are not the best way..love and respect is far the best. In fact I fully believe that is exactly what God does with everyone, love and respect them ... I'm wondering whether some of what's being said on this thread, is merely people talking at cross-purposes, and misunderstanding what the other person is saying.
Apologies if I've just added confusion to things

Eph4:26 · #**103** 5th November 2009, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Tavita

You have been shown a couple of times in this thread ...

Tavita . . . rather than go on that merry-go-round ride one more time, I have a question for you with respects to:

1 John 4:8:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

2 John 6 "this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments"

God = Love.
Love = obeying the commandments.

Rev. 3:19
'Those whom I love (Phileo), I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Please start your reply with "I believe 2 John 6 and Rev. 3:19 are examples of God's unconditional love for every man, woman, and child that ever lived because . . . "

Der Alter · #**104** 5th November 2009, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Eph4:26

More to the point, if you can provide documentation that the following . . ..

1 John 4:8:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

The English word love in the original Greek text is Agape (ag-ah'-pay). It does not mean to have affection for.

Same word as in 2 John 6 "this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments"

God = Love.
Love = obeying the commandments.

Rev. 3:19
'Those whom I love (Phileo), I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

If God, as the word is used in the original Greek text (Theos), means magistrate, then He only has affection (phileo) to those that obey His Laws.

doesn't mean what it says, then I'll comment.

Your padding of this thread with references to dozens of unrelated verses only obfuscates your position.

The word Agape occurs 215 times in the NT. You posted 2 out-of-context proof texts! What I posted was NOT padding or unrelated, it was only part of the definition of Agape from the Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek. Which is one of, if not, the most highly renowned NT Greek lexicon in the world. What I posted was the authority on Greek, not your two out-of-context proof texts. You could not parse a Greek verb if your life depended on it. When you are ready to read what the Greek experts say you might have something to worth reading.

Eph4:26 · #**105** 5th November 2009, 06:03 PM

Der Alter . . . your previous post failed to address my question entirely. I'm going to try to restate my question . . . . with respects to:

1 John 4:8:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

2 John 6 "this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments"

God = Love.
Love = obeying the commandments.

Rev. 3:19
'Those whom I love (Phileo), I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Please start your reply with "I believe 2 John 6 and Rev. 3:19 are examples of God's unconditional love for every man, woman, and child that ever lived because . . . "

Eph4:26 · #**106** 5th November 2009, 06:28 PM

tansy .. . this is well stated...

Originally Posted by tansy

... I'm wondering whether some of what's being said on this thread, is merely people talking at cross-purposes, and misunderstanding what the other person is saying.

It has given me pause and rethink what the purpose of the thread is suppose to be. Returning to the topic, if you would be so kind as to reply with "I believe 2 John 6 and Rev. 3:19 are examples of God's unconditional love for every man, woman, and child that ever lived because . . . "

Der Alter · #**107** 5th November 2009, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Eph4:26

Der Alter . . . your previous post failed to address my question entirely. I'm going to try to restate my question . . . . with respects to:

1 John 4:8:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

2 John 6 "this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments"

God = Love.
Love = obeying the commandments.

Rev. 3:19
'Those whom I love (Phileo), I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Please start your reply with "I believe 2 John 6 and Rev. 3:19 are examples of God's unconditional love for every man, woman, and child that ever lived because . . . "

Once again here is part of the definition of αγάπη/agape from BAG Greek lexicon of NT Greek. I have highlighted the meaning. Note one of your texts is listed in this definition. Para. 2, line 3. Until you recognize that your proof texts are only two of 215 occurrences and two occurrences of a word does NOT determine the meaning, your question is irrelevant.

αγάπη , h", hJ — I. love (an unquestioned example fr. a pagan source was lacking for a long time [ s. critical art. by EPeterson, BZ 20, ’32, 378-82]. Now we have an inscr. that is surely pagan [ Suppl. Epigr. Gr. VIII ’37, 11, 6—III AD ], in the light of which such exx. as PBerl. 9869= Berl. Klassikertexte II ’05 p. 55 [II BC ]; Philod. , parr. col. 13a, 3 Oliv.; POxy. 1380, 28; 109 [II AD ] and others fr. paganism [ s. Ltzm. , exc. after 1 Cor 13 ; L-S-J lex. ; ACeresa-Gastaldo, jAgavph nei documenti anteriori al NT: Aegyptus 31, ’51, 269-306 has a new pap. and a new inscr. ex. fr. III AD secular sources; in Rivista di Filologia 31, ’53, 347-56 the same author shows it restored in an inscr. of 27 BC, also in various later texts] take on new mng. In Jewish sources: LXX , esp. SSol, also PsSol 18:3; Ep. Arist. 229; Philo , Deus Imm. 69; Test. Gad 4:7; 5:2, Benj. 8:2; Sib. Or. 2, 65. Cf. ACarr, ET 10, ’99, 321-30).

1. of human love— a. without indication of the pers. who is the object of the love ( cf. Eccl 9:1 , 6 ; Sir 48:11 v.l .): aj. as subj. hJ aj. oijkodomei` 1 Cor 8:1 .—13:4, 8 (on 1 Cor 13 cf. AHarnack, SAB ’11, 132-63, esp. 152 f ; ELehmann and AFridrichsen, 1 Cor 13 e. christl.-stoische Diatribe: StKr Sonderheft ’22, 55-95 [ Maximus Tyr. 20, 2 praise of e[rw", what it is not and what it is]; EHoffmann, Pauli Hymnus auf d. Liebe: Dtsche Vierteljahrsschrift für Literaturwiss. u. Geistesgesch. 4, ’26, 58-73; NWLund, JBL 50, ’31, 266-76; GRudberg, Hellas och Nya Testamentet ’34, 149 f ; HRiesenfeld, Con. Neot. 5, ’41, 1-32, Nuntius 6, ’52, 47 f ); Phil 1:9 . hJ aj. kako;n oujk ejrgavzetai Ro 13:10 ; plhvrwma novmou hJ aj. ibid. ; yughvsetai hJ aj. t. pollw`n Mt 24:12 ; hJ aj. ajnupovkrito" let love be genuine Ro 12:9 , cf. 2 Cor 6:6 . As predicate 1 Ti 1:5 ; 1J 4:16 b. As obj. ajgavphn e[cein 1 Cor 13:1-3 ; Phil 2:2 ; diwvkein 1 Cor 14:1 ; 1 Ti 6:11 ; 2 Ti 2:22 ; ejnduvsasqai th;n aj. Col 3:14 .—2 Pt 1:7 ; Col 1:8 . In gen. case oJ kovpo" th`" aj. 1 Th 1:3 ; to; t. uJmetevra" aj. gnhvsion the genuineness of your love 2 Cor 8:8 . e[ndeixi" th`" aj. vs.
24 .—Hb 10:24 ; Phil 2:1 ; 1 Pt 5:14 ; 1 Cl 49:2.—In prep. phrases ejx ajgavph" out of love Phil 1:16 ; paravklhsi" ejpi; th`/ aj. sou comfort from your love Phlm 7 ; peripatei`n kata; aj., ejn aj. Ro 14:15 ; Eph 5:2 ; ejn aj. e[rcesqai ( opp. ejn rJavbdw/ ) 1 Cor 4:21 ; ajlhqeuvein ejn aj. Eph 4:15 . Other verbal combinations w. ejn aj. , 1 Cor 16:14 ; Eph 3:17 ; 4:2 ; Col 2:2 ; 1 Th 5:13 ; cf. Eph 4:16 . dia; th`" aj. douleuvete ajllhvloi" Gal 5:13 . pivsti" diÆ ajgavph" ejnergoumevnh 5: 6. dia; th;n aj. parakalw` for love’s sake I appeal Phlm 9 . meta; ajgavph" politeuvesqai live in love 1 Cl 51:2.— W . pivsti" 1 Th 3:6 ; 5:8 ; 1 Ti 1:14 ; 2 Ti 1:13 ; Phlm 5 ; B 11:8; IEph 1:1; 9:1; 14:1 al. W. pivsti" and other concepts on the same plane Eph 6:23 ; 1 Ti 2:15 ; 4:12 ; 6:11 ; 2 Ti 2:22 ; 3:10 ; Tit 2:2 ; Rv 2:19 ; Hm 8:9; cf. v 3, 8, 2-5. The triad pivsti", ejlpiv", ajgavph 1 Cor 13:13 ; s. also Col 1:4 f ; 1 Th 1:3 ; 5:8 ; B 1:4 ( cf. Porphyr ., Ad Marcellam 24 tevssara stoicei`a mavlista kekratuvnqw peri; qeou`, pivsti", ajlhvqeia, e[rw", ejlpiv" and s. Rtzst., Hist. Mon. ’16, 242 ff , NGG ’16, 367 ff ; ’17, 130 ff , Hist. Zeitschr. 116, ’16, 189 ff ; AHarnack, PJ 164, ’16, 5 ff =Aus d. Friedens-u. Kriegsarbeit ’16, 1 ff ; PCorssen, Sokrates 7, ’19, 18 ff ; Annemarie Brieger, D. urchr. Trias Gl., Lbe, Hoff., Heidelb. Diss. ’25; WTheiler, D. Vorbereitung d. Neuplatonismus ’30, 148 f ). W. duvnami" and swfronismov" 2 Ti 1:7 . Cf. B 1:6.—Attributes of love: ajnupovkrito" Ro 12:9 ; 2 Cor 6:6 . gnhsiva 1 Cl 62:2. filovqeo" and filavnqrwpo" Agr 7. suvmfwno" IEph 4:1 a[okno" IPol 7:2. ejktenhv" 1 Pt 4:8 . It is a fruit of the Spirit karpo;" tou` pneuvmato" Gal 5:22 , and takes first rank among the fruits. aj. tou` pneuvmato" Ro 15:30 ; cf. Col 1:8 . In the sense alms, charity ISm 6:2 ( cf. aj. lambavnein ‘receive alms’ PGenève 14, 7).— ajspavzetai uJma`" hJ ajgavph tw`n ajdelfw`n the beloved brothers greet you, i.e ., the church greets you IPhld 11:2; ISm 12:1, cf. ITr 13:1; IRo 9:3. In these passages the object of the love is often made plain by the context; in others it is
b. expressly mentioned— a. impers. aj. th`" ajlhqeiva" 2 Th 2:10 ; aj. th`" patrivdo" 1 Cl 55:5.
b. human beings aj. ei[" tina love for someone eij" pavnta" tou;" aJgivou" Eph 1:15 ; Col 1:4 . eij" ajllhvlou" kai; eij" pavnta" 1 Th 3:12 ; 2 Th 1:3 ; cf. 2 Cor 2:4 , 8 ; 1 Pt 4:8 . ejn ajllhvloi" J 13:35 . ejx hJmw`n ejn uJmi`n 2 Cor 8:7 ; hJ aj. mou meta; uJmw`n 1 Cor 16:24 .
g. God or Christ aj. tou` qeou` love toward God (but in many cases the gen. may be subjective) Lk 11:42 ; J 5:42 ; 2 Th 3:5 ; 1J 2:5 , 15 ; 3:17 ; 4:12 ; 5:3 ; 2 Cor 7:1 v.l. (for fovbo"); aj. eij" qeo;n kai; Cristo;n kai; eij" to;n plhsivon Pol 3:3; aj. eij" to; o[noma qeou` Hb 6:10 .

2. of the love of God and Christ— a. to men. Of God ( cf. Wsd 3:9 ): ejn hJmi`n 1J 4:9 , 16 . eij" hJma`" Ro 5:8 , cf. vs. 5. ajgavphn didovnai bestow love 1J 3:1 ; ejn aj. proorivsa" hJma`" eij" uiJoqesivan Eph 1:4 f ; cf. 2: 4.—2 Cor 13:13 ; Jd 2 . God is the source of love 1J 4:7 , the qeo;" th`" aj. 2 Cor 13:11 and therefore God is love 1J 4:8 , 16 . Christians, embraced by his love, are tevkna ajgavph" B 9:7; 21:9.—Of Jesus’ love J 15:9 , 10 a, 13 ( cf. MDibelius, Joh 15:13 : Deissmann- Festschr. ’27, 168-86); Ro 8:35 ; 2 Cor 5:14 ; cf. Eph 3:19 . Perh. the ajlhqh;" ajgavph of Pol 1:1 is a designation of Jesus.
b. of the relation betw. God and Christ J 15:10 b; 17:26 (on the constr. cf. Pel.-Leg. 12, 21 oJ plou`to" o{n me ejplouvtisen oJ satana`"). tou` uiJou` th`" aj. aujtou` of the son of his love, i.e ., of his beloved son Col 1:13 ( s. PsSol 13:9 uiJo;" ajgaphvsew" ).—WLütgert, D. L. im NT 1905; BBWarfield, PTR 16, ’18, 1-45; 153-203; JMoffatt, Love in the NT ’29; HPreisker, StKr 95, ’24, 272-94, D. urchr. Botschaft v. der L. Gottes ’30; EStauffer, TW I 20-55; RSchütz, D. Vorgeschichte der joh. Formel oJ qeo;" ajg. ejstivn Kiel Diss. ’17; CRBowen, Love in the Fourth Gosp.: Journ. of Rel. 13, ’33, 39-49; GEichholz, Glaube u. L. im 1 J: Ev. Theol. ’37, 411-37. On e[rw" and aj. s. Harnack, SAB ’18, 81-94; ANygren, Eros u. Agape I ’30, II ’37 (Eng. transl. Agape and Eros, AGHebert and PSWatson ’32, ’39; on this JATRobinson, Theology 48, ’45, 98-104); LGrünhut, Eros u. Ag. ’31. Cf. CCTarelli, jAgavph , JTS n.s. 1, ’50, 64-7; EKLee, Love and Righteousness: ET 62, ’50 f , 28-31;
?? ??????? , Verbum Domini 28, ’50, 110-19; 122-40; 193-213; 257-70; 321-40; TOhm, D. Liebe zu Gott in d. nichtchristl. Religionen, ’50; WHarrelson, The Idea of Agape, Journ. of Rel. 31, ’51, 169-82; VWarnach, Agape: Die Liebe als Grundmotiv der ntl. Theol. 1951; JESteinmueller, jEra`n, Filei`n, jAgapa`n in Extrabiblical and Bibl. Sources: Studia Anselmiana 27 f , ’51, 404-23.—Full bibliog. in HRiesenfeld, Étude bibliographique sur la notion biblique d’ ajgavph, surtout dans 1 Cor 13: Con. Neot. 5, ’41, 1-32, Nuntius 6, ’52, 47 f ; CSpicq, Agapè, 3 vols., ’58/’59; Eng. transl. by McNamara and Richter, 3 vols., ’63/’66 without footnotes. [ . . . ]

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker

There are many, many, more references for αγάπη in the N.T. than your few out-of-context proof texts.

Edited to add: Lets read your proof text, in context. Some form of the word αγαπη/agape occurs 15 times.

1Jn 4:7-12
(7) Beloved, [αγαπητοι] let us love [αγαπωμεν] one another: for love [αγαπη] is of God; and every one that loveth [αγαπων] is born of God, and knoweth God.
(8) He that loveth [αγαπων] not knoweth not God; for God is love. [αγαπη]
(9) In this was manifested the love [αγαπη] of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
(10) Herein is love, [αγαπη] not that we loved [ηγαπησαμεν] God, but that he loved [ηγαπησεν] us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
(11) Beloved, [αγαπητοι] if God so loved [ηγαπησεν] us, we ought also to love [αγαπαν] one another.
(12) No man hath seen God at any time. If we love [αγαπωμεν] one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love [αγαπη] is perfected in us.

And they all are either definition 1 or 2, above.<period> End of story!

Edited to add: And you might want to look up the word metonymy. Little critters are very common in koine Greek.

wayseer · #**108** 5th November 2009, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by tansy

I don't think the judgement is like you've just suggested..and yes, maybe accountability is not quite the way to look at it...I was trying to find ways to counter what Eph4 was saying.

Indeed - it is difficult to alter the direction of dinosaurs.

I certainly agree that threats and fear-mongering are not the best way..

They are the relics of the past concept that God is the 'old man in the sky with a big ledger and an even bigger stick' approach to humanity.

... love and respect is far the best. In fact I fully believe that is exactly what God does with everyone, love and respect them ...

Indeed.

I'm wondering whether some of what's being said on this thread, is merely people talking at cross-purposes, and misunderstanding what the other person is saying.

I hope so but unfortunately I think there is very much of the old beliefs still alive and kicking.

Apologies if I've just added confusion to things

Apologies are not needed. I value your contributions and your thinking.

Tavita · #**109** 5th November 2009, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Eph4:26

1 John 4:8:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

2 John 6 "this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments"

God = Love.
Love = obeying the commandments.

Rev. 3:19
'Those whom I love (Phileo), I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Please start your reply with "I believe 2 John 6 and Rev. 3:19 are examples of God's unconditional love for every man, woman, and child that ever lived because . . . "

No, my dear, you have yet to address the Strong's, Thayers, and Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek (which Der Alter has given you) of what the Agape love of God means.

This question you give for me and everyone else to answer is just a diversion so you won't have to face it.

Giving just two verses out of the total context of scripture doesn't cut it.

You are the OP and the onus is on YOU to prove that your opening post is true.

Der Alter · #**110** 5th November 2009, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by wayseer

Indeed - it is difficult to alter the direction of dinosaurs.

They are the relics of the past concept that God is the 'old man in the sky with a big ledger and an even bigger stick' approach to humanity.

Indeed.

I hope so but unfortunately I think there is very much of the old beliefs still alive and kicking.

Apologies are not needed. I value your contributions and your thinking.

Of course the early church, all of whom spoke Greek, got it wrong and now 2000 years later folks who don't speak Greek, who very likely could not parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it, are recreating God in their own image, while mocking and belittling those who will not buy into their new age views.