No right to criticize

Barry, do you believe that Moses was a great prophet? Did you know he was a murderer, polygamist, rabble rouser, nearly destroyed a entire culture, claims to have saw God, destroyed entire cities, and even disrepected God to the point that he could not enter the promise land? Made up the first five books of the Bible? Etc. etc. etc. Is this the prophet of God you want to follow?

So don't give me your critical review of the so called failings of Joseph Smith.

Originally Posted by fatboys

You have got to be kidding. Don't you think that making up a entire new world would be easier than to connect a book with the bible so perfectly? This is really lame. As is Barry's challenge. Produce a book that compares to the Book of Mormon. Although I have enjoyed the trilogy, it is not in the same planet, comparitively.

How would making up a new world be easier than connecting another book to the Bible? First, the book is not connected to the Bible perfectly. The only perfect connections to the Bible are the portions that are copied verbatim out of it. There is nothing in the BoM that suggests that the people are Jewish aside from a brief mention of where they came from and the off-the-cuff remark that they are Jewish. There are several glaring contradictions to what the Bible states, like the Mulekites supposedly were led by the son of the king, when the Bible states that all of the royal family were killed, among other things.

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You can't sow your wild oats and then pray for crop failure.

You're right in some way. The LOTR trilogy was much better written and nowhere close to what is seen in the bom

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"A dog barks when his master is attacked.
I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth
is attacked and yet would remain silent." John Calvin

And I know that it is wrong.

I don't have a burning in the bosom argument. I would have no way of knowing if someone else's bosom burned. Your D&C says that if the bosom burns, it is right. I prefer to see if the message agrees with the Bible and to allow the Holy Spirit to bring scripture to my mind.


There are several reasons.

1. Some church-goers have not been born again. and, therefore, do have the Holy Spirit to bring truth to their remembrance.


2. Some have only a little knowledge.

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children" (Hosea 4:6).

"But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen." (2 Peter 3:18)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)


3. Some don't want the Bible to be true.

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20)

So there we have it. Your answer would be quite similar to mine. I know one thing and you claim to know the opposite.

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So what does lightplanet have to say about the burning in the bosom?


If a conviction of truth comes only through reading the Bible, one can't help but wonder why there are so many different Protestant and Catholic churches in the world today.

The Bible teaches that one cannot know that Jesus is the Lord without the Holy Ghost (1 Cor. 12:3), which works on the heart and guides us into all truth (John 16:13). For example, on the day of Pentecost, the three thousand who were led to Jesus, and who joined the Church and were baptized were not converted by reading the New Testament--it hadn't been written yet. They weren't converted by studying the writing of the ancient prophets either the Pharisees and Sadducees had been doing that for centuries, yet they didn't accept Christ.

The three thousand were converted because of a pouring out of the Spirit, which bore testimony to them. They were, as the Bible so aptly states, "pricked in their heart" (Acts 2:37). Once the conversion process begins, Paul tells us that God sends forth "the Spirit of his Son into your hearts" (Gal. 4:6). Does that mean if you do not feel of His Spirit in your heart that you aren't converted? The author believes it does.

Critics are mistaken if they think Latter-day Saints only put their trust in physical sensations in their chests. Perhaps we have focused too much on the earlier phrase of D & C 9:8 where the Lord tells Oliver Cowdery that his "bosom shall burn" within, and we sometimes miss the most important part of that sentence: "you shall feel that it is right."

We have been commanded to "trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good--yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit" (D & C 11:12). We know that the fruits of this same spirit are "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance" (Gal. 5:22, 23). It is this Spirit with his many "fruits" of good character that we strive and pray for, not just a "burning in the bosom."

Nevertheless, the Bible teaches that feelings of the Spirit are often experienced as a burning in the bosom. Two disciples who were on the road to Emmaus were visited by the resurrected Lord. They didn't recognize him with their eyes, nor because of their knowledge of the scriptures. They recognized him when "their eyes were opened" and they recalled: "Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" (Luke 24:32)

bold mine

I will disagree that the Bible teaches that feelings of the Spirit are often experienced as a burning in the bosom. This is mentioned only once to my knowledge.

This is an incredibly interesting article:

When we receive the teachings of the Book of Mormon in the way that Moroni intended, we ponder the “things” that we are receiving; thus, as outlined in verse 4 [Moro. 10:4], we prepare ourselves to accept answers from our Heavenly Father...

The Lord does not ask us to prove that the teachings we have read are true, or that they are not true. That is the kind of objective approach one might take in the academic, scientific world. However, that is not the best way we learn truth from the Lord.

The Lord offers us the opportunity to let him confirm truth already in our hearts. But in order to confirm religious truth, one must at least have the idea, or the thought, or the belief (however small) that he has found something true, and then pray to receive the Lord’s confirmation...

Thus, our prayer, in essence, is a request for a confirmation of our own conclusions from our pondering. The Lord may not respond exactly how and when we expect, but still our obedience to these conditions qualifies us to receive an answer; this is the scope of the process described in these verses.
Gene R. Cook, “Moroni’s Promise,” Ensign, Apr 1994, 12

[quote=Ran77;53327323]What you said is incorrect. If you believe that making statements that are wrong changes nothing, that is your choice, but don't expect it to fly with everyone else. Here's what I actually said, in red this time to distinguish it from my present remarks: That you (or anyone else) might or might not experience it changes absolutely nothing. This is absolutely not saying that "making statements that are wrong changes nothing." I will thank you not to twist my words. To do that is misleading, disingenuous and wrong.

What I experience is not subjective. Anyone who has experienced will understand what I just said. What everyone experiences is subjective. You might believe yourself to be an exception, but you're not.

Unless I completely misunderstood it, according to Section 9, you are SUPPOSED to receive that burning in the bosom after you've studied something out and made a right decision, and according to Moroni 10:3-5, the Holy Ghost will manifest the truth of all things if you have prayed with a sincere heart, having real intent - right? Did you not go through this process to receive your own testimony? Can you explain why some people go through these steps and believe that they receive the answer not to join the LDS church - or received no response whatsoever?

This is superfical, and means little. This is your opinionl, and I forgot that you were there during the time of the building the tower.

Originally Posted by fatboys

I was out discing my ground the other day and you have plenty of time to reflect on many topics. One topic that ran across my mind was the fact that critics attack the Book of Mormon. The content, how it was translated, etc. What right does anyone have to criticize this work? If you can reproduce this type of work, then lets see it. If you can not, then keep your mouths shut.

Have you read The Book of Zelph?



Josh Anderson did a good job.

And your premise that one must do better to criticize seems terribly flawed. By this logic you should not venture any criticism of the Book of Zelph until you do better.

"No man knows my history. No man could write a book like this and live. Joseph Smith did and he got killed. But look at me, I'm not dead!"

- Josh Anderson

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Then my comment wouldn't apply to you.

However, I am glad you mentioned the D&C and Bible connection. I'll see what I can do with that.



Then it seems that you knew the answer all along. Why ask then?

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Ran77

I'm sorry, I couldn't get past this to focus on the rest of what you posted. I have asked this of you a myriad of times with no appreciable result. I agree, that when someone does that it is misleading, disingenous, and wrong. Please stop.

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Ran77

At last we agree on something - well, except for the spelling.