OldStudent, because you have a valid concern about derailing the New Church thread, I've moved my question to a new thread. Take your time. I look forward to your response (and the response of others as well).
Here are my 2 questions:
OldStudent. If the experience "makes me feel good," is that enough or could that be part of the risk? Yes, as I have looked at the matter there is risk worthy of expressing caution.
Q1: Risk of what?
as I have looked around, the SDA church is the favored daughter of faith.
Q2: Is an individual eligible for salvation and Heaven if all of the following are true:
(1) The individual was once a member of the SDA denomination; and (2) The individual was once convicted of the sabbath and other SDA doctrines; and (3) The individual becomes convicted that his prior understanding is not in line with Scripture; and (4) The individual makes the decision to leave the SDA denomination; and (5) The individual never ultimately returns to the sabbath or to membership in the SDA denomination; and (6) The individual is alive when Jesus returns?
The first five conditions in question 2 do apply to myself.
I have hope in the resurrection unto eternal life.
I do not hope to go to a place called heaven. Jesus went there for me and all his Body. I hope to meet him in the air and be with him, wherever he goes.
I hope to serve with Jesus in his new Jerusalem, when it comes down from heaven.
OldStudent, because you have a valid concern about derailing the New Church thread, I've moved my question to a new thread. Take your time. I look forward to your response (and the response of others as well).
Here are my 2 questions:
Q1: Risk of what?
Q2: Is an individual eligible for salvation and Heaven if all of the following are true:
(1) The individual was once a member of the SDA denomination; and (2) The individual was once convicted of the sabbath and other SDA doctrines; and (3) The individual becomes convicted that his prior understanding is not in line with Scripture; and (4) The individual makes the decision to leave the SDA denomination; and (5) The individual never ultimately returns to the sabbath or to membership in the SDA denomination; and (6) The individual is alive when Jesus returns?
I welcome your continued candor.
BFA
"God is love." That has become my "prime axiom." Any conversation that does not contribute to understanding and our deeping appreciation for that statement is at best a waste and can easily become destructive. Sooo:
First off, It's not my judgement to make on the basis of a persons inclination to visit other churches. Not long ago I was there myself as my family was processing what to do about having been burned for years by two sick congregations and 20 years of sparks with the church school across the street. We did some looking around but couldn't bring ourselves to step back from the Sabbath - though it did come up in conversation. Synagogue became interesting though.
Second, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" Matt 7:20. I know nothing of the person who initiated this conversation. I expect the question to be raised, "Can we EVER make that judgement." Before he came to the cross beside Jesus, what was the state of the thief - either theif for that matter? And there are several others recorded who crossed path of Jesus who were not in a "saved" state but became saved - or not. Both states are eveident in the records - that's often a key point of the stories. More later if interested.
Third, We are to take interest and concern for the trajectory of anyone in our sphere of influence.
Forth, As we are starting a new thread from a small piece of a previous conversation, several interesting parts of this conversation are not (or have not yet) been brought forward.
I would hope to not be or become monotonously meticulous. One of the big problems today can be expressed something like this: It may appear we speak the same language but the definition of words and concepts have often been reframed so we often unknowingly wind up in reality speaking different languanges and getting hotter than the Babylonians about it.
Here is my plan unless you would rather see something else - I will make other posts to your introductory thread to give brief address to aspects of the roll of church, doctrine, and judgement.
Are you acquainted with the thoughts and word pictures in the Ezekiel 16?
This paints a picture that leads to the new testament revelation of the involvment of the Gentiles in God's salvation in Jesus Christ.
Joe
I have looked at the direction of the morals of America and said, "Soon God is going to have to apologize to the plain of Sodom for for letting us sink below them and leaving us be." God is giving His people a severe and graphic rebuke. Yet saying even yet Jerusalem's restoration was possible. Could it be that in the strengthening and defense of Sodom's sins and the inversion of righteousness we are seeing Sodom being re-established? Are we also not likely to again observe its end but on a grander scale?
Matt 28: "16Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
In the context of this thread and of this passage please note the three word phrase ending verse 17, "but some doubted." When I first saw that my mind flushed with hope and wonder. When Jesus gave this awesome commission doubt was present. Doubts about Jesus. Doubts about the resurrection. Doubts about what's next. You fill in whatever doubts you bring to the scene. Experience would handle the doubts. The presence of doubt was wonderfully acknowledged but given little concern - precious little.
Beginning to unpack this passage in Greek class made the pains of the classes well worth while. It required that I make some heavy attitude adjustments.
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."
Jesus boldly, briefly, explicitly states His credentials to make the grand statement that follows.
It is valuable to perceive the contextual order of this passage.
"Go ye therefore"
As we read it this sounds like an order - "Get out of here and get busy." No, that is not it. To the hearers it was more like, "When we're done here." Or "As you go." This is a soft phrase.
"Teach all nations"
If you saw your child distractedly headed into traffic you would issue an imperitive statement like, "Jimmy, look out! Get back here!" The imperitive of this phrase is like that. This is the order given. Furthermore, a better translation is: "make disciples of all nations." Making disciples is different than teaching. There is much higher personal investment and level of personal interest. Teaching transmits information. Discipling hands down a mind set and its associated lifestyle through observation and experience.
"baptizing them in the name of..."
This is the standard phrase prefacing water baptism. And water baptism is part of this but it, as I view it, is much larger. But let's look at the "name" a bit more first. I spent some years as a field service engineer (a repairman) for a medical instrumentation company. I recall opening the door into a lab one day. A tech glanced at me and called out in obvious hope and relief for everyone to hear, "Micromedic is here." Micromedic is here? Yes, I was the company. I was the authority and brought the skills they at that moment needed and were crippled without. They knew that in a matter of minutes from my arrival their problem would be solved and a certain capability they needed would be back on line. The "name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is huge. It is their authority, nature, capability, hopes and desires for us - love. It is not a mere handle of address - OldStudent. It lays out everything that is God before us. Now let's back up to "baptize." Baptize translates to "immerse." It is our commission to immerse disciples (within human limitations but greatly enhanced by God's overshadow) in the nature, qualities, and desires of God. (Remember the expressed qualifications of Jesus as He is saying this.)
Now we arrive at teaching - doctrine. For illustration, a doctrine of physics: f=ma. force = mass (your body) times acceleration (change of speed). You know about it. You experience it everytime you use those pedals near the floor of your car. In physics class you learn how to describe aspects of using a car and come to a better understanding of what you are doing. As we immerse people in the "name of (God)" we describe aspects of His nature, of us in relation to that nature, and how to avail ourselves of the privileges He offers.
As the ultimate mentor, Jesus promises to not just teach us and move on. He promises to continue to mentor us, to continue to teach us, to remain with us through thick and thin. So are we (within the range of our individual callings) to relate to those we have opportunity to disciple.
Jer 31:33-34
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. KJV
Heb 8:10-12
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. KJV
I believe we are still dodging the central question.
Sorry for the slow response. I've been under the weather. Not sure whether or not it is the magical H1N1 bug. My whole family has it (whatever it is). Have no fear. It cannot be spread by keyboard!
Originally Posted by OldStudent
"God is love." That has become my "prime axiom." Any conversation that does not contribute to understanding and our deeping appreciation for that statement is at best a waste and can easily become destructive.
In keeping with that theme, should we conclude that the position held by the SDA denomination regarding "the close of probation" or "the mark of the beast" or "the remnant" furthers or undermines "God is love?"
First off, It's not my judgement to make on the basis of a persons inclination to visit other churches. Not long ago I was there myself as my family was processing what to do about having been burned for years by two sick congregations and 20 years of sparks with the church school across the street. We did some looking around but couldn't bring ourselves to step back from the Sabbath - though it did come up in conversation.
What does it mean to step back from the sabbath. What would happen if one did so?
Second, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" Matt 7:20. I know nothing of the person who initiated this conversation. I expect the question to be raised, "Can we EVER make that judgement." Before he came to the cross beside Jesus, what was the state of the thief - either theif for that matter? And there are several others recorded who crossed path of Jesus who were not in a "saved" state but became saved - or not. Both states are eveident in the records - that's often a key point of the stories. More later if interested.
In your mind, does Matthew 7 suggest that a non-sabbatarian does not have the fruits of the Spirit?
Third, We are to take interest and concern for the trajectory of anyone in our sphere of influence.
What does this mean? If a person ceases to set aside the sabbath, what would that trajectory say to you?
Forth, As we are starting a new thread from a small piece of a previous conversation, several interesting parts of this conversation are not (or have not yet) been brought forward.
Feel free to bring anything forward that you feel is relevant.
I would hope to not be or become monotonously meticulous. One of the big problems today can be expressed something like this: It may appear we speak the same language but the definition of words and concepts have often been reframed so we often unknowingly wind up in reality speaking different languanges and getting hotter than the Babylonians about it.
So far, I don't sense that we speak the same language. Rather, I sense that we aren't yet communicating. However, I remain hopeful . . . .
Here is my plan unless you would rather see something else - I will make other posts to your introductory thread to give brief address to aspects of the roll of church, doctrine, and judgement.
That's fine by me. And I'm happy to respond to such posts. However, could you first address--head on--the two questions in my original post? As far as I can tell, your sole response to my two questions is as follows:
"It's not my judgement to make on the basis of a persons inclination to visit other churches."
We are in a whole new thread and my post goes much deeper than this statement. I've offered a specific example and I look forward to your response as it relates to that example.
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