Destiny of former SDAs -- Heaven or Hell?

God knows the heart. No set of doctrines followed by any church (human?) on this earth are 100% right.

JM

Universalism, the belief that God would save everyone, was popular in the early church.

JM

Jon,

Can you help me understand the relationship between your post and my original post?

BFA

BFA, You kind of sat me back for a bit. I had to look more critically at some stuff and do some off-line work. What follows is likely a bit of an over kill. I see in another post you have re-phrased what is on your mind but this is in the background of my mind as I respond to that. Here goes.

Leaders are an integral part of how "denominations" happen. We will be making heavy and concentrated use of the hermeneutic "law of first mention." Where a term or issue first comes up, look for important, defining context.
From Adam and on for some 2000 years the people of God, as recorded in the Bible, were traceable through the family line of the patriarchs. With Jacob's/Israel's family that began to expand a bit with the twelve tribes of Israel. With some 400+ years in Egypt they incubated to a group of 2,000,000 - give or take some margin. At this point God called Moses (with Aaron to assist) as the instrument to bring His people out of Egypt to form a new nation - a new manifestation of God's people. In Exodus 3 we see Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses' father in law. As a priest Jethro was under a calling of God. In Exodus 18 we find Jethro recommends to Moses the delegation of people to assist Moses in serving the needs of the people. In Exodus 24 see God beginning to groom a group of 70 men, with Aaron and his sons, as leaders to assist Moses in serving the people.
Exodus 18 provides a bit of context to Numbers 12 which we open now. Consider vss 1, 2 - "1And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman. 2And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it." In two verses Miriam and Aaron stepped out of bounds - twice. They fussed about Moses' wife - like it was anything they were qualified to comment on. Then they began to insinuate themselves onto Moses' turf. (Recall this kind of thing was Lucifer's downfall.) God's response was immediate, decisive, and severe.
In Numbers 16 is record of Korah, Dathan, and Abriam also looking to elbow in on leadership. That went even less well.
In Numbers 17 we read of a step God took to demonstrate and memorialize that when God makes a calling of people into His service God places them in a peculiar standing that is not to be trespassed. Twelve rods, each representing a prince, were brought before the Lord in the tabernacle. "5 And it shall come to pass, that the man's rod, whom I shall choose, shall blossom: and I will make to cease from me the murmurings of the children of Israel, whereby they murmur against you (Moses)." Indeed, Aaron's rod that budded was placed IN the Ark of the Covenant along with a pot of manna and the "tables of the covenant" - the 10 Commandments (Hebrews 9:4). God thought it so important that He placed a memorial of the discussion of His delegated authority IN the Ark. The other artifact that was associated with the Ark was the "book of the law" which was "put it in the side of the ark of the covenant" (Deuteronomy 31:26).
Paul had to deal with another potential distortion of leadership. He was instrumental in establishing a church in Corinth. Paul took his church plantings seriously. Whereever he was he had a way of keeping in touch. At some point he got a report that things weren't going well in Corinth. In response he wrote a letter, 1 Corinthians, in an effort to address a number of problems that had developed.
After his opening greetings the very first thing he launches into is this: 1 Corinthians 1: "10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.[wash my mouth]11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.[wash my mouth]12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.[wash my mouth]13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?[wash my mouth]14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;[wash my mouth]15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name." People were lining up behind their favorite personality, "I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ." He comes back to it again in chapter 3, [wash my mouth]"3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?[wash my mouth]4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?[wash my mouth]5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?" Kind of, "Come on guys. Grow up. God has called us all to work together to grow in Christ. Don't be picking favorites." What do you think Paul's response would be to, "I am of Luther," "I am of Calvin," "I am of Wesley?"
Are there Biblical grounds for denominations? It would appear not so. God has always had A chosen people, or in a transition time, soon revealed who they were. I don't down play Luther, Calvin, or Wesley. As Paul says they, among whoever else God so chooses, are "but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man." There is no denying denominations do exist. At this point God works whereever the benefits of the blood of Christ are presented. But within the constraints of those denominations the benefits He desires to confir are hedged.
So what do we say of the SDA church? "I am instructed to say to Seventh-Day Adventists the world over, God has called us as a people to be a peculiar treasure unto Himself. He has appointed that His church on earth shall stand perfectly united in the Spirit and counsel of the Lord of hosts to the end of time." 2SM 397 (Jan 21,1908).
"Seventh-day Adventists have been chosen by God as a peculiar people, separate from the world. By the great cleaver of truth He has cut them out from the quarry of the world and brought them into connection with Himself. He has made them His representatives and has called them to be ambassadors for Him in the last work of salvation." 7T 138 (1902).
"We are to invite everyone - the high and the low, the rich and the poor, all sects and classes - to share the benefit of our medical institutions. We receive into our institutions people of all denominations. But as for ourselves we are strictly denominational: we are sacredly denominated by God and are under His theocracy. But we are not unwisely to press upon anyone the peculiar points of of our faith." 7T 109 (1902).
Ellen White is saying these things when there were serious problems in the organization: Christ Our Righteousness was a key presentation of the 1888 GC yet was strangely evaded. Mrs. White was soon thereafter exiled to Australia for bucking plans GC leaders were unwisely persueing. R&H was burned for refusing to cleanup their business plan. The sanitarium was burned for its spiritual independence. Yet God had selected and delegated His people and He was not about to change His mind. We would do well to pray the prayer of Daniel in chapter 9 and avail ourselves of the message to the church of Laodicea and ready ourselves for the work before us. To leave for lack of trust in the churches organization could be a serious mistake. Follow Jesus. His church too was also in dire straights. The chaff and tares God has ways to remove but the wheat will reamain.

Do some more research on Midianites, they more likely did not worship God during the era of Moses
.........<http://www.blueletterbible.org/Search/Dictionary/viewTopic.cfm?
type=GetTopic&Topic=Midian;+Midianites&DictList=4#ISBE>

Like Paul, I am not of Luther, Calvin or Wesley.

No.

God's chosen people are Israelites. God has not replaced his chosen people. Gentiles may be grafted in among the natural branches, but they are nonetheless wild branches.

And yet you have clearly articulated that you view the Seventh-day Adventist denomination as having a special place and role. What of that?

Did God establish denominationalism?

Who is "His church?"

Have Seventh-day Adventists replaced Israel as God's chosen people? Upon what Biblical basis would we accept such a claim?

Did God establish denominationalism? Clearly Ellen G. White believed that SDAs are "sacredly denominated by God." What do you believe?

The issues run far deeper than a lack of trust in the church's organization. I have clarified my questions in the opening post of this thread. My questions relate to persons, such as myself, who disagree with SDA theology for Biblical reasons. My questions ask whether a person such as myself can gain entry into Heaven. You seem to be avoiding these questions. Sometimes silence speaks more loudly than words.

Do you assume that I am not following Jesus? If so, why? You seem to imply that leaving the SDA denomination would pull me away from Jesus. If I've misunderstood, please clarify.

Who is "His church?" Does it include Baptists? Presbyterians? Methodists? Lutherans? Catholics?

BFA

God "chooses" everyone - we are created. Don't confuse being chosen for a task to be done with being chosen for a special class of people. This is the root of much evil in the world.

The perception of "being chosen" was essential for a people who had been highly persecuted. Their sense of value had swung so far to "lack" that the perception of being chosen was essential to healing.

My caution to OldStudent is that we should not confuse the SDA denomination with Israel and mistakenly reach the conclusion that the former has replaced the latter. Do you agree or disagree with this caution?

BFA

When do you see the prohibition to teach become appropriate?

(This was composed off-line. I hope it formats OK when converted to a post.)
SDAs are inclined to Pharisaical arrogance. I don't want to go there but some things I am about to say could well be taken that way. I am facinated with the word "preconception" and the power it has demonstrated in history. A prime expression of it is found in the Crucifixion. Arrogance, preconception, and the bullies punch are common bed fellows. I acknowledge personal risk for arrogance. If I hold indefenceable preconceptions I better be getting them fixed. And I sure want to keep my hands in my pockets!

Israel had blown it. They had been shut down for a while and taken to Babylon for a restart. Yet in response to Daniel's prayer in capter 9 the angel says, "24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." This is probationary language. They had options of receiving or rejecting Messiah. At the end of this time they set their mind against Messiah. Jesus said, "your house is left unto you desolate" Matt 23:38. Paul was pressed to the conclusion, "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles" Acts 13:46. They turned down the privilege of being God's chosen agency of salvation to the world. In a sense they are still a "chosen" people but they are no longer chosen in the sense of carrying the knowledge of a saving Messiah to the world - that is being handled by "the church."


No. It is a historical development of which He has been permissive.

Here is where I am likely to face the charge of arrogance. Let me handle it this way: First let's look at a problem of many denominations and let's start with the Bible. Many don't even have an Old Testament. Beyond that, to various extents, the teachings of Jesus, as having preceded the cross, are also Old Testament and also nailed to the cross. SDAs have and freely use the OT. Some even realize that "the scriptures" of the NT is the OT - they are the scriptures of Jesus and Paul and... The teachings of Jesus, indeed, the whole Bible are validated by His life and sealed by the cross.

Next, Many say the Law (which often includes the 10 Commandments) was voided at the cross. SDAs hold that the law of sacrifices was fully answered by the death of Jesus and thus out of practice yet an understanding of them is still valuable. Health law has largely come forward. And, of course, the Ten Commandments are still fully in force.

Then, There is general acceptance of Jesus as Saviour but the meaning of Savior is blurred. Often it means He saved us FROM the Law. The idea of Him as Lord, as One who has right to claim obedience and execute judgement for not doing so tends, to be down played. SDAs hold that if Jesus is not Lord, neither is He Saviour. SDAs hold that as Saviour Jesus He redeemed us from the PENALTY the still valid law demands. As Lord He expects obedience. As Saviour AND Lord He cleanses us from all sin, writes His law on our hearts thus enabling obedience. We do well to continue reading after "God so loved the world..." to "...that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

Then too, there are very few denominations that acknowledge the day of which Jesus is Lord. This is obviously a point accepted by SDAs - it's part of our very name. That Day is also held in common with Israel.

As for us or anyone being "Spiritual Israel:" I have heard the term but to this point do not have a working definition. I sense it is subject to contextual reframing so we would need to calibrate our definitions before we could do much with it.

In short form I have tried to illustrate the broad range of teaching among the denominations. Many of the teachings are at least deviant of each other if not incongruent. Would it not make sense that among them all there might be a rare one holding the best integration of it all? But even with all the best teaching, if we teach it as a science or a code we may find ourselves with mere gnositisim - what you know yields salvation. The goal of the teaching is to guide our discipling in God's love - see post on Great Commission.

Based on evidence exampled above it becomes default I hold that God has evidenced Himself esepcially to one group - not just because she said so.

I have read and reread the questions of the opening post. I can be frustratingly slow at times but I may be finally getting the picture you are trying to paint. I am not free to assume you are not following Jesus. I like the idea I first heard from Rich Mullins - God is wild. He is not subject to our taming, to our guidance, or judgments. As God He does as He likes. It may be there is reason for you to be where you are. I have had enough experience with the SDA church (at least some congregations) to realize the likelyhood we could be cause of injury to some people. So to just put it out there - It is probably best that I remain evasive of your questions in the opening post as the answers best remain in the domain your own relationship to Jesus - especially since I know nothing of your history or personality. Where I feel the need to say, "Be careful" about pulling away from the church is what are you pulling away from (injurious people, an issue you don't really want to face) and where does Jesus go as you do so?

However, my ears perk up at the idea of Biblically based disagreement with the SDA church. I hope I can still be open to any Biblically based position or understanding that differs from my present position - if it is something I have given consideration and thus have a baseline. If you would consider broaching some discussion that way I could be none other than grateful. If you do so by opening a new thread be sure to guide me there.

I struggled for some time with this one. Here is what I suggest. Let's say we make an extensive list of groups who like to stand under the banner of "Christian" and look at them all (now there is an occupation of at least one lifetime) then draw a line at some point and say, "Above this line are those in 'His Church' - sorry about the rest." Instead, is there a sieve we can use and see what remains for closer examination. These verses in Revelation have some common elements that God looks favorably on we might use: Rev 12:17; Rev 14:12. What elements might you thread into the sieve?