In this world of endless problems it is easy to become jaded, but have you considered the Bible and the God that made the Bible available to humans.
Yes sir, and thank you sir, I have considered it.
Originally Posted by clirus
The Bible tell you the past, the present and the future and provides a "Basic Instruction Book for Living Everyday". Bible = God's Love Letter to humanity paid with the blood of Jesus Christ.
The bible told me ppl can have virgin birth in the past, it tell nothing useful for our present, and it predicted a very disturbing future.(eschatology, Armageddon)
Originally Posted by clirus
No human can live to the perfection that is stated in the Bible, but I believe the Christian Lifestyle leads to the most environmentally friendly, socially responsible lifestyle that can exist.
*chuckle*
Like enabling slavery again? Slaughter my own sons if they disobey me? Dash the head of my bride if she is no virgin?
Originally Posted by clirus
Galatians 5:19-23, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkness, revellings, and such like: of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in the time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. ----- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
*chuckle*
Can anyone these days still commit witchcraft?
Originally Posted by clirus
Christianity is a personal responsibility to live accordance with the Fruits of the Spirit and to rebuke the works of the flesh.
I'm pretty sipiritually rich without the bible. Since spiritual is purely...spiritual, there is no point trying to point out I'm less spiritually wealthy than anyone.
Originally Posted by clirus
Capitalism can be very evil, but Capitalism practiced by Christians is very healthy.
Wrong to the core. Can gravity be evil? Capitalism is a theory that tries to describe economical behavior based on honest observation and verifiable evidence.
While socialism and christianity are all man-made or extended from human's mind.
Originally Posted by clirus
Society is like a ship on a wild sea. The ship is democracy, the sails are Capitalism, the rudder is Christianity and the protection is the military and the law. Without sails the ship is dead in the sea and will rot. Without a rudder the ship will crash and burn. Without the military the ship will be robbed and raped. Without the law, those that are Atheists on board the ship would deceive and pervert the society.
Society is what it is. Before we come up with theories that try to interpret it, it runs and it will run.
The only possible mistake is we try to invent something and then try to apply it to the society regardless of the reality.
Also, I'd like to see which atheist actually perverted the society.
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Quick liberals, start supporting capitalism by buying more Che T-shirt! 100% Sweat shop made!
Well, Americans tend to worship it. But the US does not currently have the highest degree of economic freedom/free trade. I am not up to speed on who exactly it is that does however. As for where it is from, classical liberalism is usually said to have begun with Adam Smith, and 'the wealth of nations' is often considered a crucial work. And yes, I know Adam Smith was influenced by others. But as I understand it he is often considered it's father.
So will you say Adam Smith invented, or someone else before Adam Smith invented capitalism, before them, ppl will keep producing merchandise even they know they won't be able to sell them, ppl will keep raise the price even they know their goods weren't welcomed?
Originally Posted by faith guardian
So enlighten me.
With pleasure.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
I actually agree. I have little love for religion. It's all too often used as an excuse for a lot of bad stuff. So is the absence of religion however. It's a human thing more than a religious thing really.
Also, while some groups/sections of Christianity has some such views this is not at all the case for all of us.
Reasonable.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
So enlighten me. If I have no clue, why don't you say what it really IS about? I note you're very quick to tell me I know nothing, but also that you never say what it is I don't know. Just that I have no clue. Some might take this as an indication that you yourself are on shaky ground.
Ok. I'll begin this with the example of gravity.
Say Newton never existed. Ppl do find out things drop on the ground without being hold or supported.
Say Joe is a genius prior to newton that wants to solve this problem. He wants to explain why things fall on the ground if unsupported.
So he raise series of hypothesis:
1, things are all conscious and wants to get back to mother earth
2, there is an invisible hand draggs them to the ground
3, becasue there is an invisible hand push it to the ground from above.
Yes, these hypothesis are all quite stupid from today's point of view. But hey, don't forget it's something figured by ppl hundreds of years ago.
Back to the topic. So how do we know hypothesis best describes the reality? Pay attention here, those hypothesis do not have to be "true", they just have to be accurate, to a certain degree.
Experiment, Observation. Two gold keys to verify a theory.
By design a series experiments, Joe, if he is smart and reasonable enough, will find out the second theory stand out of its peer.
So Joe will proudly tell the world, Eurika! There is an invisible hand dragging everything to the ground!
Laughable? Yes it is. But this is how science goes. We now know the notion of an "invisible hand" is quite ridiculous, but this is how science goes. Observe an phenomenon->tries to raise hypothesis to explain the phenomenon->verify those hypothesis
Those hypothesis do not have to be true and can not claim to be true.
Capitalism is the theoratical attempt to describe something preexisted, not to CREATE something that does not exist.
However, since Joe find out the "invisible hand" theory best describe the reality, whether he decide to extend the theory further or stick to it, it's pure his bizniz. Whether he decided to utilize such phenomenon and make some practical use, it's his bizniz.
Rules create ppl, not ppl create rules.
But of course, ppl can try to grab the idea of those rules and tries to go well with it, but any attempt tries to invent something new will be denied by their own effort.
Capitalism it among those theories that survived waves of testifying, while socialism, not.
As to whether anyone claim he/she understands the capitalism the best, therefore she claim everyone else should understand it same way as she/he does, it's quite ludicrous.
So whether we should force a free market to a society even evidence shows it's impossible or let goverment control everything even it has been proven disastrous, it's pure human's thingy. The capitalism will not "gone" if we decide to choose the later one, it will not "thrive" if we selected the first.
That's why I said "I don preach capitalism just like I don preach gravity".
But human have to make a choice don't they? Well, there goes the democracy.
And of course, there can be totalitarianism. And sometimes, it works better (by or by not accident)
I'm glad to see ppl choose Obama by verifying again the root of capitalism: ppl are self-interest. They want a mechanism that take care of those unables, by preassuming they are the unables.
One way, you'll have to work your ass of while possessing discernable talent to achieve your goal. The other way, all you need to do is to donate a little of your own, like others, to a pool, and every kid gets something from the pool.
I'm not going further as it can be quite offensive to some ppl. And I'm sure some of them are making the "pooling" effort out of pure noble cause.
I hope I had made my point and I had made my point clear. However, I'll emphasize the crucial point: we raise theories to try to match and decribe the laws, not to invent laws.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
Any sweatshop of your choice? Most plantations in the third world? Plenty of mines? Coca Cola? Pepsi? united fruit? Tommy Hillfiger? Dole? Texaco? London Fog? and if you go further back the information about the abuse has had time to propagate - we can mention the east indian trading companies for a start.
So sweatshop eh? Well, there will be news company making profit by to exposure such hideous situation. So ppl will stop buying those merchandise produced by the sweatshops.
No no no, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying "See? Another score for capitalism." I'm simply saying yep, it's a lousy system, and we might have to stick to the system for quite a long time.
Also, myraids of evidence has revealed in order to maximise your profit, you got stick to one rule, no harm to others can be done. Pamalat sells expired diary? Gone. melamine milk in china? Gone.(At least most of them)
There will always be heartless buisness man finding a place where ppl will work for 1 peny a day. There will always be human rights group knocking on his door. It's just like science, seek problems, destroy problems. There is no panacea.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
quoth the american? Come on mr. skeptic. You know one huge reason for those failures is highly likely intervention from the US, Britain, Spain and Portugal. Depending on the era and the country affected. You cannot blame a country for failing such things if they were invaded or had coups, terrorists, guerrillas and similar things funded by opposition to the change.
Bravo! Ain't that the truth. So does slavery. But none of that is done in the name of capitalism just like Stalin didn't send ppl to labour camp just because he's atheistic.
I'm quite saddened to see US is running down the dead course proven by nazi germany and imperial japan. You want the oil? Buy it. They don't sell? Buy it from canada, from europe, investing more money in developing new energies such as microlization of nuclear reactors.
But the US gov found setting up military bases in those oil producing countries a shorcut. Instead of letting ME realise oil is profitable by itself, they provide facilities to those region for "free".
I can go on and on. From the red october in russia to katrina. But I don't have the time.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
You say capitalism works. I don't disagree. It works, but it tends to work at the expense of the weakest. And this is a cost we cannot afford at the given time.
Well this is how you interpret it. I'm not gonna force you to do it any other way.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
Forgive the 'insult', but if you looked at the numbers from social democracies where intervention has not been practiced it becomes abundantly clear that the 'socialist' policies you consider so harmful actually work incredibly well.
Examples?
Originally Posted by faith guardian
Even if you look at Cuba, for all it's faults there are success stories any objective observer cannot ignore. Their illiteracy was significantly reduced, their health significantly improved.
So does russia, china... but what does it have anything to do with capitalism?
Capitalism = illiteracy?
Originally Posted by faith guardian
Cuba has one advantage other latin american nations have not had. They managed to beat back US intervention. While they certainly have been suffering under the trade ban from the US they have - all things considered - done a very good job with what they have.
Haha, the ban is a intervention. Again, why intervention has anything to do with capitalism?
I think average US businessman would happy to export or import goods to or from cuba.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
But socialism is not communism.
No. But the goal of socilism is communism, or to say, anarchism based on zero individual property.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
And there are plenty of different forms of socialism too.
*Chuckle* Just like there are myraids of religion. All claims to be true and the only salvation.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
Both of these ideologies can easily be implemented in a society which does indeed recognize man's self-interest.
Then inevitablely, there will be conflict between individual benefit and collectivism. And then there will be man-made policies try to solve the jam. And they will fail.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
Nonsense. it's a pipe dream conjured by the rich and powerful for whom the system works.
So again, you are suggesting some one managed to invent a series laws that works, but not work well to the common good.
I've made my point prior, if it is man-made, it will not work at all. Unless somehow it coincide with the real, natrually evolved law. Which to my knowledge, impossible.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
You criticized me for not knowing anything about capitalism and you equate socialism with soviet era collective farms?
So you actually think the soviet was built in one day, they went to their type of fundamentalism in one day?
Well, unfortunately, it's a gradual process. They all started from the ideal but somehow reached a pretty ugly reality. The forerunners of russian revolution, I dare to say, are 100 times more noble than Hugo Chaves. It's really not their fault. They are among those who tried to help and helped. By providing the rest of us how bad it will become if you do not act scientifically.
You wouldn't think Stalin were born to be Stalin would you? LOL.
Really nice talking to you my friend. I really like your candor and strong sense of justice. I sure hope there are as many ppl have the same conscience as you do as possible.
Oh and, I suggest you reading Chris Hitchens' god is not great. He said quite a bit how he struggled out of the ideal of socialism.
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Quick liberals, start supporting capitalism by buying more Che T-shirt! 100% Sweat shop made!
Say Newton never existed. Ppl do find out things drop on the ground without being hold or supported.
Say Joe is a genius prior to newton that wants to solve this problem. He wants to explain why things fall on the ground if unsupported.
So he raise series of hypothesis:
1, things are all conscious and wants to get back to mother earth
2, there is an invisible hand draggs them to the ground
3, becasue there is an invisible hand push it to the ground from above.
Yes, these hypothesis are all quite stupid from today's point of view. But hey, don't forget it's something figured by ppl hundreds of years ago.
Back to the topic. So how do we know hypothesis best describes the reality? Pay attention here, those hypothesis do not have to be "true", they just have to be accurate, to a certain degree.
Experiment, Observation. Two gold keys to verify a theory.
By design a series experiments, Joe, if he is smart and reasonable enough, will find out the second theory stand out of its peer.
So Joe will proudly tell the world, Eurika! There is an invisible hand dragging everything to the ground!
Laughable? Yes it is. But this is how science goes. We now know the notion of an "invisible hand" is quite ridiculous, but this is how science goes. Observe an phenomenon->tries to raise hypothesis to explain the phenomenon->verify those hypothesis
Those hypothesis do not have to be true and can not claim to be true.
Response
Early in my quest for truth I realized it was easier to destroy a lie than to defend the truth.
Atheists/Humanists usually turn to science and medicine to discredit God and the Bible.
Therefore I will not try to defend God but rather attack science and medicine.
Lets take light for example. Light exhibits both wave and particle properties.
Most often light appears as a wave, but what propagates the wave in the vacuum of space? Scientist have come up with a lot of theories, but none really provide a complete explanation.
Lets take gravity for example. The effects of gravity and properties of gravity can be measured but there is no agreement on what gravity is.
Atheists/Humanists consider The Theory of Evolution to disprove God, but the Atheists/Humanists cannot convert non living matter into living matter.
Any honest scientists and medial person will tell you that vastly more is unknown than is known. Science and medicine operate in a very narrow range of understanding. More can and should be learned about God's creation, but it should never be used to discredit God.
Atheists/Humanists take great pride in the fact that the earth is not the center of the universe even thou the Catholic Church said it was. The Bible does not state the earth is the center of the universe. A lot of people make a great mistake of proving that God is wrong when it is man that is wrong.
Until science can define what gravity is, the concept of God's unseen hand is just as valid as any other explanation.
Also, I do not believe the Bible was ever intended to define the physical universe, but rather to define a society in which there was order, where science and medicine can learn about God's creation.
PS America does not need to buy or steal oil since there are ample supplies of oil that the environmentalists and democrats are preventing from being used. Also, there is nuclear power that offers an endless supply of safe energy which the environmentalists and democrats are preventing from being used.
Say Newton never existed. Ppl do find out things drop on the ground without being hold or supported.
Say Joe is a genius prior to newton that wants to solve this problem. He wants to explain why things fall on the ground if unsupported.
So he raise series of hypothesis:
1, things are all conscious and wants to get back to mother earth
2, there is an invisible hand draggs them to the ground
3, becasue there is an invisible hand push it to the ground from above.
Yes, these hypothesis are all quite stupid from today's point of view. But hey, don't forget it's something figured by ppl hundreds of years ago.
Back to the topic. So how do we know hypothesis best describes the reality? Pay attention here, those hypothesis do not have to be "true", they just have to be accurate, to a certain degree.
Experiment, Observation. Two gold keys to verify a theory.
By design a series experiments, Joe, if he is smart and reasonable enough, will find out the second theory stand out of its peer.
So Joe will proudly tell the world, Eurika! There is an invisible hand dragging everything to the ground!
Laughable? Yes it is. But this is how science goes. We now know the notion of an "invisible hand" is quite ridiculous, but this is how science goes. Observe an phenomenon->tries to raise hypothesis to explain the phenomenon->verify those hypothesis
Those hypothesis do not have to be true and can not claim to be true.
Response
Early in my quest for truth I realized it was easier to destroy a lie than to defend the truth.
Which explains why your "truth" is so distorted.
Atheists/Humanists usually turn to science and medicine to discredit God and the Bible.
No, they turn to science and medicine because it works... you should know as well as anyone that God can only be discredited by his more wayward followers.
Therefore I will not try to defend God but rather attack science and medicine.
So... you have absolutely nothing to offer.
We noticed.
Lets take light for example. Light exhibits both wave and particle properties.
Most often light appears as a wave, but what propagates the wave in the vacuum of space? Scientist have come up with a lot of theories, but none really provide a complete explanation.
Lets take gravity for example. The effects of gravity and properties of gravity can be measured but there is no agreement on what gravity is.
Not yet... but people are working on it.
Atheists/Humanists consider The Theory of Evolution to disprove God, but the Atheists/Humanists cannot convert non living matter into living matter.
I'm an evolutionist... am I trying to disprove God?
Any honest scientists and medial person will tell you that vastly more is unknown than is known.
True... so there's a lot we still need to know.
Science and medicine operate in a very narrow range of understanding. More can and should be learned about God's creation, but it should never be used to discredit God.
Which is why it's not... except in your imagination.
Atheists/Humanists take great pride in the fact that the earth is not the center of the universe even thou the Catholic Church said it was.
Education --1, Dogma -- 0.
The Bible does not state the earth is the center of the universe. A lot of people make a great mistake of proving that God is wrong when it is man that is wrong.
And the Catholic Church is a product of man, not God. What makes your errors any different from the Atheists'?
Until science can define what gravity is, the concept of God's unseen hand is just as valid as any other explanation.
It has, and it's not.
Also, I do not believe the Bible was ever intended to define the physical universe, but rather to define a society in which there was order, where science and medicine can learn about God's creation.
Which it does.
PS America does not need to buy or steal oil since there are ample supplies of oil that the environmentalists and democrats are preventing from being used.
Because we need the land for more important things.
Also, there is nuclear power that offers an endless supply of safe energy which the environmentalists and democrats are preventing from being used.
Build the plant and live next door if it's so safe.
__________________ "If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high,
You'd laugh and say 'Nothing's that simple!' But you've been told many times before,
Messiahs pointed to the door, And no one had the guts to leave the temple!" -- The Who
Build the plant and live next door if it's so safe.
Response
If I accept the risk, build the nuclear plant and live next door to it, should I be allowed to charge other people as much as I can get for the power produced?
Build the plant and live next door if it's so safe.
Response
If I accept the risk, build the nuclear plant and live next door to it, should I be allowed to charge other people as much as I can get for the power produced?
If they can't get their power from somewhere else, then you can gouge to your greedy heart's content.
__________________ "If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high,
You'd laugh and say 'Nothing's that simple!' But you've been told many times before,
Messiahs pointed to the door, And no one had the guts to leave the temple!" -- The Who
I believe capitalism comes from the Bible concept that good will be rewarded and evil will be punished.
I found out an interesting fact today... As an industry, Internet Porn pulls in approximately 3 billion dollars a year.
My my my... they must all be such good people...
__________________ "If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high,
You'd laugh and say 'Nothing's that simple!' But you've been told many times before,
Messiahs pointed to the door, And no one had the guts to leave the temple!" -- The Who
I found out an interesting fact today... As an industry, Internet Porn pulls in approximately 3 billion dollars a year.
My my my... they must all be such good people...
It would seem that you think the porn industry is not being punished, but I look around and see all of America being punished for legalizing pornography.
It would seem that you think the porn industry is not being punished, but I look around and see all of America being punished for legalizing pornography.
Especially since studies have shown that red sates have a higher subscription rate to porn sites than blue states. God is punishing them with healthcare...
__________________ "We are trying to unravel the Mighty Infinite using a language which was designed to tell one another where the fresh fruit was." --Terry Pratchett
"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." --Emo Philips
It would seem that you think the porn industry is not being punished, but I look around and see all of America being punished for legalizing pornography.
Even if you were right, it means nothing... pornography is and has always neem an international moneymaker... a true capitalism success story.
__________________ "If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high,
You'd laugh and say 'Nothing's that simple!' But you've been told many times before,
Messiahs pointed to the door, And no one had the guts to leave the temple!" -- The Who
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