Texaco dumped pollutants in the river, ruining the livelihood of many people downstream.
Response
Was it Texaco or one of the workers at Texaco that was spaced out on coca and white rum that dumped pollutants in the river, ruining the livelihood of many people downstream?
I believe most companies are responsible and most environmentalists are unreasonable.
Environmentalists do nothing (but complain) so they make few mistakes.
Companies are well aware of environmental damage and try to minimize it. Anytime raw materials are extracted from the earth there will be environmental damage, but if the raw material are not extracted then people freeze to death or die of starvation.
Environmentalists just do not know how to achieve a reasonable balance.
Capitalism achieves a reasonable balance by "supply and demand". If the supply gets low and or the demand gets high prices increase till supply and demand get back into balance.
faith guardian quote
Clirus, when it started, this abuse had the full blessing of the church.
Response
Which church, the Protestant, the Catholic or the Greek Orthodox?
I will say this, you have swallowed the whole socialist, pacificist, environmentalist viewpoint, hook, line and sinker.
faith guardian quote
So whose fault is it Clirus? Them, for being walked all over repeatedly? Or ours, for walking over them every time they try to stand up?
Response
Are you really sure they can stand up considering all the coca and white rum?
The Bhopal disaster or Bhopal gas tragedy was an industrial disaster that took place at a Union Carbide pesticide plant in the Indian city of Bhopal, Madhya Pradesh. At midnight on 3 December 1984, the plant accidentally released methyl isocyanate (MIC) gas, exposing more than 500,000 people to MIC and other chemicals. The first official immediate death toll was 2,259. The government of Madhya Pradesh has confirmed a total of 3,787 deaths related to the gas release. Others estimate 8,000-10,000 died within 72 hours and 25,000 have since died from gas-related diseases.
Some 25 years after the gas leak, 390 tonnes of toxic chemicals abandoned at the Union Carbide plant continue to pollute the ground water in the region and affects thousands residents of Bhopal who depend on it.
Obviously "clirus" hasn't heard of the "Bhopal Distater," BUT then again she is not above accusing the men, women and children of that city from all being "spaced out on coca and white rum," being a bunch of unreasonable "socialist, pacificist, environmentalists" and deliberately inhailing the methyl isocyanate (MIC) gas so they could all sue an upstanding corporate citizen, like Union Carbide, for damages.
__________________ Hard work never hurt anyone - but why take the chance!
Capitalism is a system which - as it's purity increases - very often leads to exploitation and grievous harm to peoples, nations, and the environment within which we live and upon which we depend.
Who invented capitalism?
Where or when was/is the purest capitalism?
I dare to say you have zero understanding of capitalism.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
It may not in itself be evil, but what it inspires and enables is certainly not good. Not if you look at the larger picture.
This can be said on anything, even christianity. Orgnised religion do much more harm than good. When ppl do good things, they do it as a chiristian, not as christianity, but when comes to banning the use of condoms or vaccine, hey hey...
Originally Posted by faith guardian
I don't want a system enabling the high consumption and lifestyle we enjoy in the west at the expense of the lives of miners, plantation workers, peasants and other poor people in other continents. Alas, that is how it is.
Alas, you sure don't have a clue what capitalism is all about.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
People die at very young ages to ensure we get to live the way we do. Me, I'd call that evil. But perhaps that's just me.
Example?
Originally Posted by faith guardian
I recommend you read 'Open Veins of Latin America' for a quick summary of some of this harm inflicted upon one continent. Though similar works could easily be written about Africa or Asia.
I'm done with those stuff. Especially after I see how the popularist movements had damaged the latin america, and those so called "socialist village" in africa.
You see? This is how we differ. I'm not young and naive or premature any more. I don't think there is a pancea solution to all the problems. I believe everything is like science: seek the flaw, then solve the flaw, even it cause more flaws. It's a weary journey of solving myraid of problems, not enter certain command, then woohoo! All problems gone.
Originally Posted by faith guardian
Do you really equate the two as 'laws'?
No.
But both are theory raised based on honest observation. Both christianity and socialism denies that men are self-interest.
Just like evolution, it's a theory and it's a fact. It's a theory because someone raised it, namely Charles Darwin. It's a fact because it's based on evidence and honest observation.
I suggest you read something on collective farms during the soviet era. You will see how "well" those cure-all solution ticks.
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Quick liberals, start supporting capitalism by buying more Che T-shirt! 100% Sweat shop made!
You see? This is how we differ. I'm not young and naive or premature any more. I don't think there is a pancea solution to all the problems. I believe everything is like science: seek the flaw, then solve the flaw, even it cause more flaws. It's a weary journey of solving myraid of problems, not enter certain command, then woohoo! All problems gone.
Response
In this world of endless problems it is easy to become jaded, but have you considered the Bible and the God that made the Bible available to humans.
The Bible tell you the past, the present and the future and provides a "Basic Instruction Book for Living Everyday". Bible = God's Love Letter to humanity paid with the blood of Jesus Christ.
No human can live to the perfection that is stated in the Bible, but I believe the Christian Lifestyle leads to the most environmentally friendly, socially responsible lifestyle that can exist.
The New Testament of the Bible defines the change from an Atheist to a Christian.
Galatians 5:19-23, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkness, revellings, and such like: of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in the time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. ----- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
Christianity is a personal responsibility to live accordance with the Fruits of the Spirit and to rebuke the works of the flesh.
The Christian Lifestyle begins with the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and a commitment to follow the commandments of the Bible.
Christianity and Capitalism are mutually exclusive.
I believe God made man in his own image, which is to be bold, aggressive, inquisitive, etc., but then defined a set of rules that must be followed so that man will not live in filth.
Capitalism can be very evil, but Capitalism practiced by Christians is very healthy.
Society is like a ship on a wild sea. The ship is democracy, the sails are Capitalism, the rudder is Christianity and the protection is the military and the law. Without sails the ship is dead in the sea and will rot. Without a rudder the ship will crash and burn. Without the military the ship will be robbed and raped. Without the law, those that are Atheists on board the ship would deceive and pervert the society.
I believe God made man in his own image, which is to be bold, aggressive, inquisitive, etc., but then defined a set of rules that must be followed so that man will not live in filth.
Capitalism can be very evil, but Capitalism practiced by Christians is very healthy.
Society is like a ship on a wild sea. The ship is democracy, the sails are Capitalism, the rudder is Christianity and the protection is the military and the law. Without sails the ship is dead in the sea and will rot. Without a rudder the ship will crash and burn. Without the military the ship will be robbed and raped. Without the law, those that are Atheists on board the ship would deceive and pervert the society.
Who invented capitalism?
Where or when was/is the purest capitalism?
Well, Americans tend to worship it. But the US does not currently have the highest degree of economic freedom/free trade. I am not up to speed on who exactly it is that does however. As for where it is from, classical liberalism is usually said to have begun with Adam Smith, and 'the wealth of nations' is often considered a crucial work. And yes, I know Adam Smith was influenced by others. But as I understand it he is often considered it's father.
Originally Posted by libertarianSkeptic747
I dare to say you have zero understanding of capitalism.
So enlighten me.
Originally Posted by libertarianSkeptic747
This can be said on anything, even christianity. Orgnised religion do much more harm than good. When ppl do good things, they do it as a chiristian, not as christianity, but when comes to banning the use of condoms or vaccine, hey hey...
I actually agree. I have little love for religion. It's all too often used as an excuse for a lot of bad stuff. So is the absence of religion however. It's a human thing more than a religious thing really.
Also, while some groups/sections of Christianity has some such views this is not at all the case for all of us.
Originally Posted by libertarianSkeptic747
Alas, you sure don't have a clue what capitalism is all about.
So enlighten me. If I have no clue, why don't you say what it really IS about? I note you're very quick to tell me I know nothing, but also that you never say what it is I don't know. Just that I have no clue. Some might take this as an indication that you yourself are on shaky ground.
Originally Posted by libertarianSkeptic747
Example?
Any sweatshop of your choice? Most plantations in the third world? Plenty of mines? Coca Cola? Pepsi? united fruit? Tommy Hillfiger? Dole? Texaco? London Fog? and if you go further back the information about the abuse has had time to propagate - we can mention the east indian trading companies for a start.
Originally Posted by libertarianSkeptic747
I'm done with those stuff. Especially after I see how the popularist movements had damaged the latin america, and those so called "socialist village" in africa.
quoth the american? Come on mr. skeptic. You know one huge reason for those failures is highly likely intervention from the US, Britain, Spain and Portugal. Depending on the era and the country affected. You cannot blame a country for failing such things if they were invaded or had coups, terrorists, guerrillas and similar things funded by opposition to the change.
You see? This is how we differ. I'm not young and naive or premature any more. I don't think there is a pancea solution to all the problems. I believe everything is like science: seek the flaw, then solve the flaw, even it cause more flaws. It's a weary journey of solving myraid of problems, not enter certain command, then woohoo! All problems gone.
Oh, so I am naive and premature? Why thank you, I didn't know. I could of course do some name dropping and send you a CV to prove that wrong but why bother.
It seems you believe I hold a lot of positions I don't hold. It seems you jump to conclusions based on very little background information. You say capitalism works. I don't disagree. It works, but it tends to work at the expense of the weakest. And this is a cost we cannot afford at the given time.
You seem to have a brain-fart approach to the issue. Forgive the 'insult', but if you looked at the numbers from social democracies where intervention has not been practiced it becomes abundantly clear that the 'socialist' policies you consider so harmful actually work incredibly well. Even if you look at Cuba, for all it's faults there are success stories any objective observer cannot ignore. Their illiteracy was significantly reduced, their health significantly improved.
you can say what you want about the rights of the individuals there, but you cannot ignore the successes of the nation.
Cuba has one advantage other latin american nations have not had. They managed to beat back US intervention. While they certainly have been suffering under the trade ban from the US they have - all things considered - done a very good job with what they have.
Originally Posted by libertarianSkeptic747
No.
But both are theory raised based on honest observation. Both christianity and socialism denies that men are self-interest.
I disagree. If you're talking about communism I agree on that part of your statement. But socialism is not communism. And there are plenty of different forms of socialism too. Many/most Americans would for example call social liberalism socialism. And the same goes for social democracy. Both of these ideologies can easily be implemented in a society which does indeed recognize man's self-interest.
Originally Posted by libertarianSkeptic747
Just like evolution, it's a theory and it's a fact. It's a theory because someone raised it, namely Charles Darwin. It's a fact because it's based on evidence and honest observation.
Nonsense. it's a pipe dream conjured by the rich and powerful for whom the system works. Yes, it works. But at what cost?
Originally Posted by libertarianSkeptic747
I suggest you read something on collective farms during the soviet era. You will see how "well" those cure-all solution ticks.
I'm sorry.... You criticized me for not knowing anything about capitalism and you equate socialism with soviet era collective farms? Hmmmmmmm.... You just suffered a pretty severe and instant credibility loss. Of course I could have misunderstood you. Have I?
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Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
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Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
I believe, Socialism and Christianity are mutually exclusive.
Socialism requires an inclusiveness that brings in people that participates in activities that the Bible condemns.
The modern church has that same problem. Many churches say they will convert the sinners, but it would seem the church is the one that gets converted instead of the sinners.
Who invented capitalism?
Where or when was/is the purest capitalism?
Response
I believe capitalism comes from the Bible concept that good will be rewarded and evil will be punished.
Capitalism can be easily abused by the rich as Socialism can be easily abused by the poor, that is why there must be Christian controls on Capitalism.
Rich people/Capitalists can be controlled by laws, because they have something to lose. Poor people/Socialists cannot be controlled by law because they have nothing to lose.
The purest form of Capitalism is Survival of the Fittest.
Who invented capitalism?
Where or when was/is the purest capitalism?
Response
I believe capitalism comes from the Bible concept that good will be rewarded and evil will be punished.
Rewarded/ punished how?
The purest form of Capitalism is Survival of the Fittest.
Which certainly doesn't mesh with the Bible in any way, shape, or form.
__________________ "If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high,
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