Again, I failed to see how any of the two harms the economy.
Response
Some would look at the bad economy and say the problem is the profit motive of the Capitalists.
Others would look at the bad economy and say the problem is the explosion of sinful activity that drives up the costs of health care/welfare and decreases the productivity of a nation.
The socialistic program called the Community Reinvestment Act that encouraged sub prime mortgages was another example of sinful activity.
I do consider that a fallacious argument. People can be born psycopathic but that does not make it right or good. Being born with something does not make it anything. It merely means they are not to be blamed for the condition or lack thereof.
So who define it as "ungood"?
Even if it is "ungood", what practical harm will it inflict? Upon anything?
"Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate."
Is this what it is with capitalism— a series of conclusion based on the honest observation of the world, or is it actually the scheme of those who try to exploit certain mechanism in the name of preaching capitalism?
Personally, I do not preach capitalism. Just like I do not preach gravity.
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Quick liberals, start supporting capitalism by buying more Che T-shirt! 100% Sweat shop made!
Even if it is "ungood", what practical harm will it inflict? Upon anything?
That is another topic entirely.
Originally Posted by libertarianSkeptic747
"Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate."
Is this what it is with capitalism— a series of conclusion based on the honest observation of the world, or is it actually the scheme of those who try to exploit certain mechanism in the name of preaching capitalism?
Capitalism is a system which - as it's purity increases - very often leads to exploitation and grievous harm to peoples, nations, and the environment within which we live and upon which we depend. It may not in itself be evil, but what it inspires and enables is certainly not good. Not if you look at the larger picture.
I don't want a system enabling the high consumption and lifestyle we enjoy in the west at the expense of the lives of miners, plantation workers, peasants and other poor people in other continents. Alas, that is how it is. People die at very young ages to ensure we get to live the way we do. Me, I'd call that evil. But perhaps that's just me.
I recommend you read 'Open Veins of Latin America' for a quick summary of some of this harm inflicted upon one continent. Though similar works could easily be written about Africa or Asia.
Originally Posted by libertarianSkeptic747
Personally, I do not preach capitalism. Just like I do not preach gravity.
Do you really equate the two as 'laws'?
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Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
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Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
Last edited by faith guardian; 2nd November 2009 at 09:03 AM.
Capitalism is a system which - as it's purity increases - very often leads to exploitation and grievous harm to peoples, nations, and the environment within which we live and upon which we depend. It may not in itself be evil, but what it inspires and enables is certainly not good. Not if you look at the larger picture.
I don't want a system enabling the high consumption and lifestyle we enjoy in the west at the expense of the lives of miners, plantation workers, peasants and other poor people in other continents. Alas, that is how it is. People die at very young ages to ensure we get to live the way we do. Me, I'd call that evil. But perhaps that's just me.
I recommend you read 'Open Veins of Latin America' for a quick summary of some of this harm inflicted upon one continent. Though similar works could easily be written about Africa or Asia.
Response
Let us discuss an American Oil company the goes into a Latin American country, finds oil, and then hires local people.
But instead of the local people feeding their families and growing as a country, the wages are spent on wine (or in the case of Latin America, coco leaves), women and song.
Instead of the country prospering, it actually ends up with more misery and poverty.
Now whose fault was it, the America Oil company or the lack of morals of the people of the country that led to the increased poverty?
Added
There is a third or fourth element to the America Oil company, immoral people situation.
The third element is the Capitalistic Atheists that get rich off of providing the wine, women and song to the immoral people. I also include here the Atheistic Liberal News and Entertainment Industry that glamorizes and justifies the wine, women and song. The ALN and EI would surly say porn is free speech and women have a right to be working women.
The fourth element is the government that does not makes the extremes of the wine, women and song illegal in order to protect the people. Some people will always seek and find illegal things, but there is no justification for not rebuking illegal/immoral activities by making them illegal, even if there is no dedicated attempt to eradicate the activity.
A successful society is Democracy, Christianity and Capitalism. An unsuccessful society is Democracy, Atheism and Socialism.
Last edited by clirus; 2nd November 2009 at 10:32 AM.
Reason: Added several paragraphs
Again, I failed to see how any of the two harms the economy.
Response
Some would look at the bad economy and say the problem is the profit motive of the Capitalists.
Others would look at the bad economy and say the problem is the explosion of sinful activity that drives up the costs of health care/welfare and decreases the productivity of a nation.
Some are right, the others are wrong.
__________________ "If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high,
You'd laugh and say 'Nothing's that simple!' But you've been told many times before,
Messiahs pointed to the door, And no one had the guts to leave the temple!" -- The Who
Capitalism is a system which - as it's purity increases - very often leads to exploitation and grievous harm to peoples, nations, and the environment within which we live and upon which we depend. It may not in itself be evil, but what it inspires and enables is certainly not good. Not if you look at the larger picture.
I don't want a system enabling the high consumption and lifestyle we enjoy in the west at the expense of the lives of miners, plantation workers, peasants and other poor people in other continents. Alas, that is how it is. People die at very young ages to ensure we get to live the way we do. Me, I'd call that evil. But perhaps that's just me.
I recommend you read 'Open Veins of Latin America' for a quick summary of some of this harm inflicted upon one continent. Though similar works could easily be written about Africa or Asia.
Response
Let us discuss an American Oil company the goes into a Latin American country, finds oil, and then hires local people.
But instead of the local people feeding their families and growing as a country, the wages are spent on wine (or in the case of Latin America, coco leaves), women and song.
Instead of the country prospering, it actually ends up with more misery and poverty.
Now whose fault was it, the America Oil company or the lack of morals of the people of the country that led to the increased poverty?
First off Clirus the chewing of coca leaf (coco is a very different plant) is nothing new. But it's use is not something the natives have picked up out of sloth. It was used by the Incas in ceremonies and for medicinal purposes. The Spanish conquistadors did encourage it's use to get their slaves to work harder the short time they were able to work (and live). Since then the working conditions have been so deplorable, the workers worked so hard it eventually kills them.
As far as alcohol goes that is a far more common vice. (often encouraged by the employers). Rum is a very common drink and is often consumed in great amounts. White rum, cheap and low quality. Not that that's all that important. What gets them drunk and indebted to the employers works. There are employees, in many cases most employees in a particular place, who are forced into work because of a debt they were fooled into one way or another. A debt they will never pay off, they will only accumulate more. In many cases after food and housing is paid there is not enough to service the debt. And as long as the debt is there they will have to remain working for the same boss/company.
Let's look at these 'benevolent' oil companies. Texaco dumped pollutants in the river, ruining the livelihood of many people downstream. Even killing several. Some from poisoning due to the hydrocarbons in their food and water. Others from cancer later on. Their livelihood was destroyed as well.
Or let's look at other oil companies, oil companies who have managed to acquire practical monopolies in South American nations through foul play, and then abuse said monopoly to hide rich oil deposits from the nations in which they operate. Lying and saying the resources are scant and not worth any investment from the local governments. So that they can maintain a monopoly.
Yes, your 'benevolent' companies are saints. That's what you call people who have union members fired, beaten up or even killed. And of course, if someone gets hooked on drugs or booze the companies does everything in their power to make readily available and greatly consumed it's the workers' fault. If an employer pushes his employees so hard and have them work in conditions so detrimental they will die after about ten years working for the employer, while making sure booze and coca leaves are readily available the workers are the ones to blame. Especially when you couple the detrimental working conditions with an extreme despair which comes with extreme poverty, and the constant threat of physical violence should you as an employee complain about the conditions that are killing you - or if you should demand enough money to buy food for your entire family (that is, spouse and children).
Saint is the word, Clirus.
And then of course, in addition to a long history of mining companies, factories, plantations and oil companies (to mention some) using all the aforementioned and more tools to oppress the workers with profit maximization in mind do not forget that these companies/corporations have also on a number of occasions supported - and even had instated - several despots and military juntas. Which in turn have enabled not only the companies to maintain a high level of abuse but also to use the armed forces of a nation to oppress the workers. Hence neatly avoiding a lot of the blame themselves.
Also, for the record: Chewing of coca leaves is not common in the entire continent. Some countries, like Bolivia, consume a lot of it. Others don't. Even if it is consumes a lot, and that high consumption can be detrimental even really dangerous it is the only real alternative for many given their situation. Furthermore: Coca is a plant with great uses as well. Don't dismiss it as 'evil' or 'bad' so quickly. The tea made from it's leaves works wonders on height change, jet lag, nausea and several other issues. Without a detrimental effect, and without even the buzz of caffeine.
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Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
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Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
Last edited by faith guardian; 2nd November 2009 at 01:49 PM.
Let us discuss an American Oil company the goes into a Latin American country, finds oil, and then hires local people.
But instead of the local people feeding their families and growing as a country, the wages are spent on wine (or in the case of Latin America, coco leaves), women and song.
Instead of the country prospering, it actually ends up with more misery and poverty.
Are you suggesting that Latinos would rather squander their money than take care of their families?
Now whose fault was it, the America Oil company or the lack of morals of the people of the country that led to the increased poverty?
So, actually, you're flat-out saying it.
I wasn't aware racism was part of your Christian lifestyle.
__________________ "If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high,
You'd laugh and say 'Nothing's that simple!' But you've been told many times before,
Messiahs pointed to the door, And no one had the guts to leave the temple!" -- The Who
There is a third or fourth element to the America Oil company, immoral people situation.
The third element is the Capitalistic Atheists that get rich off of providing the wine, women and song to the immoral people. I also include here the Atheistic Liberal News and Entertainment Industry that glamorizes and justifies the wine, women and song. The ALN and EI would surly say porn is free speech and women have a right to be working women.
Clirus, when it started, this abuse had the full blessing of the church. It still does, in a way: Whenever you go to Wal-Mart and buy "Christian" T-Shirts or toys chances are beyond good that you're supporting the same system yourself. Capitalism DOES that Clirus. It's how it works. If you have a number of businesses competing, and one of them is willing to abuse people to get a little more profit, then that company will make more money than the others. And in a system of free competition the immoral will soon crush the moral. Immorality thrives when it is not checked. And I am not talking about porn or abortions. I am talking about torture, murder, theft, corruption, oppression and maintaining of a huge social gap. Even (on some occasions) mass murder. Sometimes even by troops directly under their control, not through middlemen. How can a company which is trying to pay it's workers fair wages compete with one which is both capable and willing to break laws, even resort to violence? Most businesses today use sweatshops. Child labor. Indentured servitude. Corruption, and other means of maximizing profit. If they don't they'll soon fall behind. You cannot compete with ruffians by being nice you know.
Originally Posted by clirus
The fourth element is the government that does not makes the extremes of the wine, women and song illegal in order to protect the people. Some people will always seek and find illegal things, but there is no justification for not rebuking illegal/immoral activities by making them illegal, even if there is no dedicated attempt to eradicate the activity.
If you make them illegal Clirus, you no longer have capitalism as you will be restricting trade. So you're advocating a selective capitalism then? Free trade on some areas and heavily restricted on others?
And you know what Clirus, the governments in South America have tried to protect their people many times. The problem is that every time they tried someone has stopped it. Spain, Portugal, Britain or the USA. Every time someone has stood up and tried to enforce laws that would increase salaries or protect the employees from harsh environments, or prevent business owners and bosses from performing any number of immoral actions they have been stopped. Every time. And not usually by gentle words either. Coups. Assassinations. Subversions. Rigged elections.
Every time.
What's really funny is how you blame them for that, when the ones who have given the generals their weapons or the assassins their training, money and target has almost always been one of those aforementioned nations. So whose fault is it Clirus? Them, for being walked all over repeatedly? Or ours, for walking over them every time they try to stand up?
Can we blame a bullied kid for his bloodied nose, or should we blame the guys who keep bullying the kid?
Originally Posted by clirus
A successful society is Democracy, Christianity and Capitalism. An unsuccessful society is Democracy, Atheism and Socialism.
Why do you make these outrageous comparisons? You know the Social Democracies in Europe are far more successful than the US. If you look at statistics more people are Christian in them as well. Also, in these socialistic nations we also have less abortions, fewer teenage pregnancies, less porn and we give more help to the needy.
You should - by now - know that this is unequivocally true. Yet you keep repeating yourself like a dented record. Why Clirus? You know you can't lump these things together like that.
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Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. dir="ltr">
Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
Last edited by faith guardian; 2nd November 2009 at 02:50 PM.
<staff edit>
I believe most companies are responsible and most environmentalists are unreasonable.
Environmentalists do nothing (but complain) so they make few mistakes.
Companies are well aware of environmental damage and try to minimize it. Anytime raw materials are extracted from the earth there will be environmental damage, but if the raw material are not extracted then people freeze to death or die of starvation.
Environmentalists just do not know how to achieve a reasonable balance.
Capitalism achieves a reasonable balance by "supply and demand". If the supply gets low and or the demand gets high prices increase till supply and demand get back into balance.
faith guardian quote
Clirus, when it started, this abuse had the full blessing of the church.
Response
Which church, the Protestant, the Catholic or the Greek Orthodox?
I will say this, you have swallowed the whole socialist, pacificist, environmentalist viewpoint, hook, line and sinker.
faith guardian quote <staff edit>
<staff edit>
Last edited by Philothei; 16th November 2009 at 08:39 PM.
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