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  #1  
Unread 21st October 2009, 10:54 PM
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Post Much to the Chagrin of the Powers that be, the Tide is Further Turning Toward...

...Catholicism Thanks to Traditional Minded Anglicans



The dream of orthodox minded Catholics and Anglican liberals came true on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 as the Vatican announced that traditional minded Anglicans, clergy included, would be welcomed into the Catholic Church with their own Anglican style rite (though not exactly a rite of their own.) The promise Jesus made that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church is now once again being made manifest for those who chose to recognize it (Matthew 16:16-20.) What King Henry VIII started Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have salvaged. The English and their former empire (if they wish) can return home again.

Since many conservatives may now leave, religious liberals too have high hopes as the worldwide Anglican Communion can possibly fulfill their wish of unbridled liberalism. However, it is becoming plain to see that it is for all intents and purposes the liberalís wish is now turning into a death wish. The irony of reading statements by traditional Anglicans thanking God for Pope Benedictís statement coupled by liberal Catholic posters in the dissident National Catholic Reporter asking to be saved from Rome spoke volumes. Even with fawning mainstream media coverage, every liberal Protestant denomination has seen their numbers plummet in recent years, some as much as 50%, while Catholicism, with all the negative banner headlines, continues to grow around the world.

The Archbishop of Canterbury seems a truly tragic figure cut from a Shakespearean play trying to hold together what a murderous king wrought. It couldnít be done and so we may now see the implosion of the Anglican Communion, especially in the only region that had any vibrancy, Africa. The African and Asian continents have long been the hope of the One True Church. Fortunately, the embers of truth can also be seen in North & South American seminaries and even in Europe, where the Faith had seemed all but dead.


The last four decades have seen liberal Christianity reach out to every sort of relativistic idea, whim and group. The western intellgentsia praised these efforts even as liberal churches emptied of their adherents. The Catholic Church reached out as well but a pivotal moment occurred in 1968 when Pope Paul VI published his famous encyclical on life, Humanae Vitae. The Church would not cross the same line that Anglicanism crossed in 1930. As the barricades in Paris burned, the liberal elites predicted the same revolutionary fervor would force the Catholic Church to acquiesce much as the western world had to the ideas fermented by those manning the barricades of Paris. Yet, the Church held the line.
Continued- http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/10/20/much-to-the-chagrin-of-the-powers-that-be-the-tide-is-further-turning-toward-catholicism-thanks-to-traditional-minded-anglicans/
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  #2  
Unread 22nd October 2009, 09:56 AM
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Father Pacwa (EWTN fame) mentioned that it's an Anglican "use". He said that a "rite" is attached to the ancient ways of celebrating the Mass so that there cannot be new "rites".

But yes, the Anglican "use" is a lot more traditional than what we presently have.
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Unread 22nd October 2009, 01:02 PM
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Even with fawning mainstream media coverage, every liberal Protestant denomination has seen their numbers plummet in recent years, some as much as 50%, while Catholicism, with all the negative banner headlines, continues to grow around the world.

The African and Asian continents have long been the hope of the One True Church. Fortunately, the embers of truth can also be seen in North & South American seminaries and even in Europe, where the Faith had seemed all but dead.
This part of the article indicates that the problems the mainstream Protestant denominations are experiencing in North America and Europe are very similar to the problems Catholicism is experiencing.

Catholicism is growing, yes---in Africa and Asia.

Catholicism is growing in the US, yes---because Hispanic Mexican and Central American immigrants who are already Catholic are moving here.

There are "embers" of truth in European and North American seminaries, but I am sure that there are some "embers" in Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc. seminaries in North America and Europe, too.

So I am confused about the premise of this article. Were it not for third world immigrants in the US and growth in Africa and Asia, the status of Catholicism in Europe and the US would not be very different at all from the mainstream Protestant denominations.

Are we going to keep importing Catholics to keep our numbers up in the US, or are we going to find ways to make the practice of Catholicism more vibrant and meaningful to the native-born American and European Catholics?

Are we going to let the high immigration rates make us complacent about our failure to reach so many in the US and Europe?

I hope not.
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Unread 22nd October 2009, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Fantine View Post
Are we going to keep importing Catholics to keep our numbers up in the US
Maybe we're hoping that their zeal for the truth "catches" and once again we'll have a vibrant Faith. (When the late Pope John Paul II visited Cuba, didn't he entrust us to Our Lady of Guadalupe and indicate that perhaps we will be saved by the great Faith that is often found in the Latin American countries?)
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"There is one true Church, the really ancient Church into which are enrolled those who are righteous according to God's ordinance. In essence, in idea, in origin, in preeminence we say that the ancient Catholic Church is the only Church." - Clement of Alexandria, Stromata

--------------------------------------------------------------

" Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live." - Deuteronomy 30:19

The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now. ĖChinese Proverb


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Unread 22nd October 2009, 01:40 PM
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Pope Benedict has rather upset the English Bishops by doing this behind their back without consulting them. Another example of Papal arrogance? Or just Benedict's lack of political nous?

The Vatican opens its arms to Anglicans – and tightens its grip - Telegraph

I have also seen a report that he is finally bringing in the TAC's - Traditonal Anglican Communion. This is not the same as the above. They have been knocking on the door for some time. I think they are mainly in Australia and USA.
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Unread 22nd October 2009, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by winsome View Post
Pope Benedict has rather upset the English Bishops by doing this behind their back without consulting them. Another example of Papal arrogance? Or just Benedict's lack of political nous?
I don't think it's either really. It was done in response to groups such as the TAC petitioning the Vatican for a response. This is the response given. It's not specific to the TAC because the Vatican didn't want to just target only one group.

Maybe the announcement could've been more effectively delivered, but even if the Anglican bishops were consulted how much help would that really be? The response would still be basically the same. They would just have 5 minutes less of "shock time" getting over the fact that it's actually happening.
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Unread 22nd October 2009, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Dark_Lite View Post
Maybe the announcement could've been more effectively delivered, but even if the Anglican bishops were consulted how much help would that really be? The response would still be basically the same. They would just have 5 minutes less of "shock time" getting over the fact that it's actually happening.
Not the Anglican Bishops. He didn't consult the Catholic Bishops. Just sprang it on them. And the suggestion seems to be that not only that priests who are already married can come across as priests, but that in future married lay men can become priests in the "anglican" rite. Hows that for a slap in the face for Catholic Priests who have been ostracised for leaving the priesthood to get married?
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  #8  
Unread 22nd October 2009, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Fantine View Post
This part of the article indicates that the problems the mainstream Protestant denominations are experiencing in North America and Europe are very similar to the problems Catholicism is experiencing.

Catholicism is growing, yes---in Africa and Asia.

Catholicism is growing in the US, yes---because Hispanic Mexican and Central American immigrants who are already Catholic are moving here.

There are "embers" of truth in European and North American seminaries, but I am sure that there are some "embers" in Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc. seminaries in North America and Europe, too. . . .
However, I read several online articles and news articles where it said that many Protestants were converting to Catholicism - from all different denominations. In many parishes in the USA, 50 to 100 or more adults and their children are received annually. So, it is not only those immigrants from Latin America that are causing an increase in numbers. Then an OBOB person mentioned that pro-life Catholics are having a baby boom. That will increase numbers too.

I think the conservative Anglicans are probably experiencing a baby boom too.
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Unread 22nd October 2009, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by winsome View Post
Pope Benedict has rather upset the English Bishops by doing this behind their back without consulting them. .
The Catholic Church has always had rites that permit married men to become priests.

Unfortunately for attempts at this type of spin, the anouncement made jointly with the Archbiship of Canterburry.
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Unread 22nd October 2009, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by winsome View Post
And the suggestion seems to be that not only that priests who are already married can come across as priests, but that in future married lay men can become priests in the "anglican" rite. Hows that for a slap in the face for Catholic Priests who have been ostracised for leaving the priesthood to get married?
It isn't a slap in the face in the least, unless someone wants to make a non-issue into an issue. Those who left the priesthood to get married knew the deal when they chose to become priests. They knew there was going to be an oath of celibacy when they took one. And there will STILL be one for the non-Anglican use priesthood here in the Western Church. Additionally, everyone knows that clerical celibacy is a discipline that, theoretically, can change or alter at any time. So while it may come as a surprise if and when changes occur, does that rise to the level of offense against those who took their oaths at the "wrong" time and place? Nobody changed the rules on them. The rules have always permitted what is now coming to pass.
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