Odd

JudaicChristian · #1 21st October 2009, 06:42 AM

I do not know what you mean Heber. Again I say: Why did the Gnostic Christians call the Judaizing Christians Gnostic's? If Trinitarism is from the Gnostic's, then why did the Gnostic's call the Judaizing Christians Gnostic's?

JudaicChristian · #2 21st October 2009, 10:22 AM

The Gnostic's taught same substance and Christ un-created as a divine mystery. (no beginning and no ending) And the Judaizing Christians taught that Christ was a immortal created being. What is odd, is that those from the Gnostic philosophies called the Judaizing Christians Gnostic heretics. So what do they mean by that?

Heber · #3 21st October 2009, 10:54 AM

The Church had to defend itself against the Gnostics because of its claim that the One who acted for all the world in Jesus Christ was the G_d of the Hebrew Scriptures. Against the Jews it had to defend the claim that the G_d of the Hebrew Scriptures had acted for all the world in Jesus Christ.The Gnostics claimed that the Father of Jesus Christ was wholly separate from and opposed to the G_d of Israel.

Heber · #4 21st October 2009, 10:58 AM

Why can't we layout the text in paragraphs anymore?

JudaicChristian · #5 22nd October 2009, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Heber

Why can't we layout the text in paragraphs anymore?

I do not understand what it is that you are saying Heber. Could you rephrase that?

Heber · #6 22nd October 2009, 05:03 AM

Errr, read my post. Your post misses the point that the Gnostics would never agree with the Judaic Christians because their (the Gnostic's) god was seen by them as being separate from and opposed to the Hebrew / Christian God. Therefore the H/C's were heretics, they did not need another reason!

JudaicChristian · #7 22nd October 2009, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by Heber

Errr, read my post. Your post misses the point that the Gnostics would never agree with the Judaic Christians because their (the Gnostic's) god was seen by them as being separate from and opposed to the Hebrew / Christian God. Therefore the H/C's were heretics, they did not need another reason!

The Pagans, Gnostic's, and or, some of the Kabbalist knew God as a Trinity.

Perhaps that is so, but they called Arian and others like him Gnostic's, when truely, they were the Gonstic's. That is what I find odd. Why did they call the Non-Gnostic's, Gnostic's? Maybe they meant by their (knowledge) they knew God as a Trinity; and the others who did not agree with them (The Judaeo Christians,) their (knowledge) is false. What do you think? That is the only reason I can think of for the Gnostic's to call the Non-Gnostic's, Gnostic's.

Heber · #8 22nd October 2009, 06:24 AM

Gnosticism is not easy to fathom out or categorise. If you read the Gospel of Truth, the Gospel of Thomas, the Tripartite Tractate and the Treatise of the Resurrection these will give a little light on the character of Christian Gnosticism. There was no single body of teaching common to all the writings and teachers of Gnosticism (bit like MJism today!). It was very secretive teaching, revealed to the few, rather thanto all, and not everyone was capable of the knowledge (gnosis) which the Gnostic possesses because, for example, it concerns things that are not apparent but beyond ordinary thought and experience and therefore alien to others. They delight in the obscure, the complex and the mystifying (bit like some on CF actually!).

To fully answer your question is not, therefore, going to be as easy as one might think. My answer, that many Gnostics believed in a god who was opposed to that supported by a very active Judaism and Christian movement is but one of the key differences that could have led to a charge of heresy. On the whole the Gnostics had their god and, if you were not one who could understand the complexities of their reasoning, as explained, all to briefly, above and worshipped another G_d, you were a heretic, even though you could be a Gnostic yourself!

This is not my particular area of study so there may well be others who can throw more light on this. However, at the time we are thinking about the cultural and social settings seemed to be where Jewish religious texts and symbols were being drawn into syncretism with popular philosophical notions and themes drawn from Helenistic religion. This is background to the 'clash' of these great understandings of G_d.

JudaicChristian · #9 22nd October 2009, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by Heber

Gnosticism is not easy to fathom out or categorise. If you read the Gospel of Truth, the Gospel of Thomas, the Tripartite Tractate and the Treatise of the Resurrection these will give a little light on the character of Christian Gnosticism. There was no single body of teaching common to all the writings and teachers of Gnosticism (bit like MJism today!). It was very secretive teaching, revealed to the few, rather thanto all, and not everyone was capable of the knowledge (gnosis) which the Gnostic possesses because, for example, it concerns things that are not apparent but beyond ordinary thought and experience and therefore alien to others. They delight in the obscure, the complex and the mystifying (bit like some on CF actually!).

To fully answer your question is not, therefore, going to be as easy as one might think. My answer, that many Gnostics believed in a god who was opposed to that supported by a very active Judaism and Christian movement is but one of the key differences that could have led to a charge of heresy. On the whole the Gnostics had their god and, if you were not one who could understand the complexities of their reasoning, as explained, all to briefly, above and worshipped another G_d, you were a heretic, even though you could be a Gnostic yourself!

This is not my particular area of study so there may well be others who can throw more light on this. However, at the time we are thinking about the cultural and social settings seemed to be where Jewish religious texts and symbols were being drawn into syncretism with popular philosophical notions and themes drawn from Helenistic religion. This is background to the 'clash' of these great understandings of G_d.

This verse comes to mind.
1 Timothy 6:20
Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,

JudaicChristian · #10 30th October 2009, 08:10 AM

So then, according to history Trinitarism has it's origins in Gnosticism. There is also a document about a Kabbalist who suggested the Godhead is triune. That was at the same time Yahshua was preaching. Perhaps that is why Yahshua quoted this verse: Mark 12:29
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Trinity
In the fourth-century, Marcellus of Ancyra declared that the idea of the Godhead existing as three hypostases (hidden spiritual realities) came from Plato through the teachings of Valentinus.[6] Valentinus is quoted as teaching that God is three and three prosopa (persons) called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:

Now with the heresy of the Ariomaniacs, which has corrupted the Church of God...These then teach three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. For he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he is discovered to have filched this from Hermes and Plato.
Since Valentinus had used the term hypostases, his name came up in the Arian disputes in the fourth century. Marcellus of Ancyra, who was a staunch opponent of Arianism but also denounced the belief in God existing in three hypostases as heretical and was later condemned for his views, attacking his opponents by linking them to Valentinus:

"Valentinus, the leader of a sect, was the first to devise the notion of three subsistent entities (hypostases), in a work that he entitled On the Three Natures. For, he devised the notion of three subsistent entities and three persons — father, son, and holy spirit."
It should be noted that Nag Hammadi library Sethian text such as Trimorphic Protennoia identify Gnosticism as professing Father, Son and feminine wisdom Sophia or as Professor John D Turner denotes, God the Father, Sophia the Mother, and Logos the Son.