The writer, historian, thinker and philosopher (and also Jewish) Isaiah Berlin uses this phrase, redolent of Nazi policies to eradicate Jews, to describe the idea that there is, at some stage in humanity's struggle towards enlightenment, the possibility that all human interests and projects may ultimately be reconciled into a single, harmonious whole. Berlin is pessimistic in this matter. He thinks it can't be done.
Do you have an opinion? And where does this leave the 'Second Coming'?
Best wishes, 2RM
__________________ Philosophy is questions that may never be answered: Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
Anon, quoted in 'Breaking the Spell', by Daniel Dennet.
Firstly, I'm fed up with hearing constantly about Nazi atrocities. Because Stalin killed far more people than Hitler.
Secondly, to answer your question, there will never be a "final solution" where the world comes together harmoniously into a uniform protocol. Look at history. Different nations, different cultures, differenct political ideologies, different religions etc. And they all clash and are competing for one another.
No, it will never happen.
And as far as the second coming, well that is supposed to be an event that does not require human coherence. Mankind does not need to be united and in one accord for Jesus to return. He will bring an end to all things and a new beginning.
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I must say, I wonder how much we have a right to expect of Jesus. Not only did He provide us with a template for accordance and unity in His first life, He is expected to return and resolve all human conflicts in His second. Is this just wishful thinking? There is little evidence to support a different view.
As for the essential differences of interest that motivate our various projects, I am inclined to agree. I don't see it, however, as a series of particular problems. I see it as endemic to the structure of our society. So long as the meaning of life is material consumption, inevitably our various interests will diverge. The fact that you can afford a second car for your family, means that, necessarily, one or more of the billion or so malnourished people in the world will go hungry. Economics at any given point in time is a zero-sum game. The world has only so much wealth to distribute.
The second-coming? When we deserve it. When we have learned the lessons of the first coming, that sacrifice in favour of the others we love is the way forward, and that we are to love all our neighbours, not just those of the same sex, race, colour, age, ability, religion, nation and culture.
Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.
PS. I mentioned the Nazis simply because the idea of a 'Final Solution', the systematic eradication of all Jews, is closely associated with those that suffered and died under them. If anyone has a right to co-opt the phrase in a different context, Isaiah Berlin, a Jew, has.
__________________ Philosophy is questions that may never be answered: Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
Anon, quoted in 'Breaking the Spell', by Daniel Dennet.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind; 26th October 2009 at 12:48 PM.
Unless my heart is a single harmonious whole I shouldn't expect Jesus to fall out of the sky like a piano, wave his magic wand and solve the turn the world into a single harmonious whole for me.
__________________ To be reprobate is to be left in sin, not pushed or forced to sin. R. C. Sproul.
Ya, in extrapolating from the history of humanity so far there will never be a harmonious existence for us humans. That is why I beleive that God must interupt human history to bring about the best possible world that a good and powerful God much create.
As long as we have extreme and genocidal ideologies like Nazism, Soviet Communism, and radical Islam then it's going to be very hard for any real reconciliation to happen.
When I was in school we were never taught anything about the atrocities of Communism. We heard a lot about Nazism but the 20 million that were killed in the Soviet Union under Stalin and the 60 million in China under Mao was never mentioned. I wonder why Communism has been given a free ride in the American educational system?
Approximately 18 million people died in the concentration camps. All who disagreed with Nazism, criticized its actions, helped others to escape Nazi Europe, were members of one of the races labeled 'inferior' by the Nazis, or even told a joke which poked fun at any of the Nazi leaders were systematically rounded up and sent to these 'murder factories'. There was no safety afforded to anyone in Europe, including fellow members of the Nazi Party itself. The seminary student who was later to become Pope John Paul II had his name on an SS list of those to be picked up for 'interrogation' because he helped Jews escape Poland.
I myself suspect that the Nazis were particularly ferocious toward Jewry, not because they believed the 'garbage' they spewed as propaganda, but instead because they recognized that the family structure of the Jews was too hard to overcome. From their earliest childhood the Jews had been taught that there was one God, that He had told them what they were to accept and what they were to reject, and that He expected them to adhere to these societal laws in any and all circumstances. From the time their boys were three years old they were enrolled in Hebrew School, where they studied The Torah.
But the real strength of these teachings lay in the family structure. I remember seeing a painting of a Jewish home, in which a little boy was standing in front of his father, facing him. He was telling his father, in detail, what he had learned in Hebrew School that day. What struck me as of supreme importance in that painting was that the father was listening attentively to his son. There was no such thing as asking, "Howed things go today?" and receiving the answer, "Fine." and letting it go at that. The mother was also there. In her lap she was holding a plate of biscuits, which she was to give to their son as a reward for his lessons learned. Learning was seen by the Jews as truly a family matter.
How could the Nazis 'turn' these children to their warped philosophy? They couldn't, and they knew it. So they had to eliminate this threat to their total power, and they proceeded to do it with ruthless efficiency. To permit the Jews of Europe to live was to permit a seperate society to exist within their empire, and this they could not tolerate.
In like manner, wherever there is a person who desires absolute power, with all others as subservient to him, Jewry is seen by him as a real problem to this day. Their cohesiveness, taught to them from their earliest years through their family structure and education, in combination with their absolute obedience to Laws and Commandments which they consider as transcending any and all human authority, make them a formidable foe. We as Christians can learn much from them, with the result being that our children are stronger in their faith, and more determined to live truly Christlike lives.
He is expected to return and resolve all human conflicts in His second. Is this just wishful thinking?
Nope, but it's my understanding that the fate of the world is destruction.
[bible]"...That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat." 2 Peter 3:12 [/bible]
I suppose it went rotten and the best way to handle it, is to destroy it and all who are in it that refuse Jesus Christ as their savior.
Originally Posted by 2ndRateMind
So long as the meaning of life is material consumption, inevitably our various interests will diverge.
The writer, historian, thinker and philosopher (and also Jewish) Isaiah Berlin uses this phrase, redolent of Nazi policies to eradicate Jews, to describe the idea that there is, at some stage in humanity's struggle towards enlightenment, the possibility that all human interests and projects may ultimately be reconciled into a single, harmonious whole. Berlin is pessimistic in this matter. He thinks it can't be done.
Do you have an opinion? And where does this leave the 'Second Coming'?
Best wishes, 2RM
Hmmm.... I can't say I agree the Nazi attempt to eradicate the Jews is suggestive of some common human desire or cohesive struggle towards enlightenment. In fact, I think it's ridiculous. It suggests, no highlights the human sinful condition more than anything - and every generation's susceptibility to some genocidal maniac.
The notion of desire for "world conquest" is patently evident in every generation, whether political, financial/economic, social, or just plain physical.
But "conquest" and "cohesive struggle towards enlightenment" are two entirely different things - the former redolent of the lust for power and the attendant genocidal desires towards the "opposition", the latter of nothing more than utopian idealistic naivete.
And I'd say his pessimism towards achieving some single, harmonious whole of human endeavor is absolutely warranted - if only because we have One who has demonstrated He will not allow such an endeavor by humanity to be successful (Genesis 11:1-9).
Unsure how Christ's second coming has anything to do with this though; I hope you're not suggesting a connection between that and Mr. Berlin's skeptical posit about cohesive struggle towards enlightenment?
__________________ Psalm 57:11 Be exalted, O God, above the heavens! Let your glory be over all the earth!
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