There wasnt 'restoration'. Things werent restored to the way they were before. David repented and God allowed him to move on, but under several big clouds. The child died. Ahitophel, Bathsheba's Grandfather, stirred up Absalom against David, there was also the problem with Amnon and Tammar. David's later life reads like a Chronicle of misery.
As for Solomon, how somone with hundreds of concubines can be described as well balanced...
If people in the church cant be reconciled, Christian husband and wife, what sort of gospel of reconciliation can we give to the world?
No there wasn't total restoration, but he wasn't turned entirely aside and cast out either. Yes, like I said there were consequences to his sins, but it wasn't a complete end to him either.
Read the WHOLE Bible Pete Not just the nice cosy fluffy bits. You'll find the Bible is full of judgment, damnation, Hell, curses, wrath, plagues etc.
Hmmm... I thought about it, and yes, I could say the same to you;
Read the WHOLE Bible Simon. Not just the judgment, damnation, Hell, curses, wrath, and plagues bits. You'll find that the Bible is full of God's Love, grace, mercy, peace, forgiveness, etc.
I can give you a scripture to support my belief that we should think more on those things;
Philippians 4:8 (AMP) For the rest, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of reverence and is honorable and seemly, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely and lovable, whatever is kind and winsome and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think on and weigh and take account of these things [fix your minds on them].
Originally Posted by Simon Peter
The church does.
In other words, if you want to invite Bentley to your church and have him lay hands on and prey over your children, than that's your - churches - decision. You have that right, and I won't complain when you exercise it.
But don't complain if I - and my church - decide Bentley is a wolf in a child's sheep costume, and keep him well away from our children.
We also have the right - actually the obligation - to warn others. Whether they heed that warning is up to them, and their church.
"The church" is not your local fellowship or my local fellowship. "The church" is the body of Christ.
That said, I do agree that there may well be times when a local fellowship of believers must take corrective actions against someone, but when they do so, they should follow Galatians 6 as their model for discipline;
Galatians 6:1-4 (AMP) BRETHREN, IF any person is overtaken in misconduct or sin of any sort, you who are spiritual [who are responsive to and controlled by the Spirit] should set him right and restore and reinstate him, without any sense of superiority and with all gentleness, keeping an attentive eye on yourself, lest you should be tempted also. Bear (endure, carry) one another's burdens and troublesome moral faults, and in this way fulfill and observe perfectly the law of Christ (the Messiah) and complete what is lacking [in your obedience to it]. For if any person thinks himself to be somebody [too important to condescend to shoulder another's load] when he is nobody [of superiority except in his own estimation], he deceives and deludes and cheats himself. But let every person carefully scrutinize and examine and test his own conduct and his own work. He can then have the personal satisfaction and joy of doing something commendable [in itself alone] without [resorting to] boastful comparison with his neighbor.
Unfortunately, church discipline rarely looks anything like this. It usually looks more like a bunch of people standing in a circle with stones in their hands.
__________________ "You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
There were two times during the revival where TB lied on stage about God healing his family and marriage and others having the same. They were obviously lies because had they been healed by God they would have been completely healed.
I found a video of one of those instances. I'll need to look for the other later if feel like it.
Thanks Faulty.
I don't hear him lying about his marriage in the video. Unless of course the guy who wrote the commentary at the end was right, and Todd was carrying on an illicit affair during the whole time. Like I asked, is this just a rumor, or does anyone have any proof?
I'm not meaning to rehash this stuff just to be controversial. I'm curious as to how so many of us felt the unmistakable presence of God during the early stages of the revival. This thing didn't build up over Todd's personality, you know. They guy bugged me, and I don't care for tattoos; but the sweet presence of the Holy Spirit overshadowed everything else.
I'm trying to explain how the Holy Spirit could have used a man such as this. Generally God doesn't visit His Spirit upon someone who is not doing their best to follow His plan. I think that the only way things could have worked out the way they did, was if Todd was truly doing his best to restore his marriage, during the time when the revival first took off. God doesn't fault us for our imperfections. It isn't until we give up trying to keep His commandments that we loose out with Him.
So judging from what Todd says, and how I know the Spirit works, I would have to say that Todd was indeed doing his best to keep his marriage intact, at first. There is no excuse for keeping the details of this private. I think then when the revival had gained momentum, God continued to visit His people simply because He is gracious. Eventually things fell apart when the truth about Todd's personal life, the cover-ups, and the exaggerations about the miracles all came out.
The bottom line: some of us were too busy looking past Todd to see our Lord and Saviour, and couldn't care less what he was doing. Others weren't ever able to see past the man, to partake in what the Spirit was doing. We really need to quit faulting each other over the situation, and stop assuming the others are less spiritual than we are simply because they saw things the opposite way. While I'm on my face, humbled and repenting before my God, I would only hope that my brothers and sisters who are not currently experiencing the same thing, would watch my back.
__________________ For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. 2 Chronicles 16:9
We can't blame TB really, because it was the promoters who were pushing him and praising him were the ones that need to be discussed. They were the ones who led him to the slaughter, by their falseness and lies and distorted promotion. The promoters are the false teachers and prophets, and the same ones who did this are ones who covered the sordid details up and are counselling him.
I thought that Todd was the head of Fresh Fire ministries, and would therefore stand responsible alone for any misrepresentation of the miracles that supposedly had taken place, and for his personal life. Once the coalition of apostles stepped in, then yes, these people too must have known the truth of what was happening and are accountable from that point. God tv is responsible for anything they knew, too.
The big problem I've seen here, is that there has been no middle ground when it comes to TB and the revival. Those who have spoken against it leave no room for God to have had any part in it. Those of us who were touched by it cannot in good conscience deny what Christ has done.
By inferring that TB had been carrying on an extramarital affair for some time, pointing out that his doctrine is way off, his tattoos are demonic, and insisting that the discussion of angels is unbiblical; it leaves no possibility for God to have been the One who met us there. And while it may be convenient and fit into your nice little doctrinal packet to say that "It must have been a deceiving antichrist spirit," that doesn't work for me. I know my God. I have made it my business to know my God, and you'll just have to trust me when I say that it was definitely my God who met me there!
I suppose we could bring up Samson, and how the Spirit of God used that man even though he lived an unholy life. Perhaps it would be good for us to consider how far off a person can go before God removes His anointing from them. In which case though, we cannot pick and choose our ministers that we listen to, nor can we judge them by their integrity. We would have to accept or deny them according to the level of anointing that they move in. Does anybody really want to go there?
I don't know why God used TB. I suspect it was because he made himself available, and was sincerely trying to live holy. At first, of course. I also doubt that all of the miracles that were reported were shams; purposely made up to deceive. My own wife for example, grew arches in her feet for no apparent reason, except for God to show us that He cares. I don't have any medical documentation to "prove" that it happened. Perhaps though there was something Fresh Fire could have done better to obtain proper records and back up at least some of the stories.
__________________ For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. 2 Chronicles 16:9
Hmmm... I thought about it, and yes, I could say the same to you;
Originally Posted by probinson
Read the WHOLE Bible Simon. Not just the judgment, damnation, Hell, curses, wrath, and plagues bits. You'll find that the Bible is full of God's Love, grace, mercy, peace, forgiveness, etc.
I agree, God is both a God of love, grace and compassion, and a God of wrath, discipline and judgment.
I also agree that we should think more about the love, grace, compassion than the wrath, discipline, judgment - and I do – but unlike some Christians, I won’t pretend God’s wrath, discipline, judgment barely exists.
Originally Posted by probinson
"The church" is not your local fellowship or my local fellowship. "The church" is the body of Christ.
That’s a bit like saying ‘the government’ can only mean the federal government, or global government, and can’t mean local government. It’s just semantics. I was using ‘the church’ in the local and global sense.
I believe local churches and denominations should support, encourage and admonish other churches and leaders as they see fit.
As you pointed out, we are all part of the body, and therefore have a responsibility to one another.
Originally Posted by probinson
That said, I do agree that there may well be times when a local fellowship of believers must take corrective actions against someone, but when they do so, they should follow Galatians 6 as their model for discipline…
Unfortunately, church discipline rarely looks anything like this. It usually looks more like a bunch of people standing in a circle with stones in their hands.
That’s funny, I’ve never stood in a circle with a stone. But I have used my words to warn fellow sheep of dangerous wolves that are circling the flock. Perhaps that's what you meant?
peace, Simon
__________________ If you believe it’s wrong to criticize other Christians, then don’t criticize me. That’s blatant hypocrisy.
If you believe we are allowed to criticize others, please feel free to criticize me. And I will defend your right to criticize me.
I also agree that we should think more about the love, grace, compassion than the wrath, discipline, judgment - and I do –
While it's true I have no idea what you spend your time thinking about on the inside, your posts generally focus on God's judgment, wrath, discipline and judgment. Also, the fact that you refer to God's Love, grace and mercy as the "fluffy and cosy bits" of the Bible tells me that perhaps you don't quite comprehend how great the Love of the Father is towards us.
The reason I post about God's Love, mercy, grace, compassion, etc. is because that's what I spend most of my time thinking about.
Originally Posted by Simon Peter
but unlike some Christians, I won’t pretend God’s wrath, discipline, judgment barely exists.
Isaiah 53:10-11 (AMP)
Yet it was the will of the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief and made Him sick. When You and He make His life an offering for sin [and He has risen from the dead, in time to come], He shall see His [spiritual] offspring, He shall prolong His days, and the will and pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see [the fruit] of the travail of His soul and be satisfied; by His knowledge of Himself [which He possesses and imparts to others] shall My [uncompromisingly] righteous One, My Servant, justify many and make many righteous (upright and in right standing with God), for He shall bear their iniquities and their guilt [with the consequences, says the Lord].
You seem to be forgetting that Jesus died and took the sin and punishment of the world. God sent a perfect, sinless sacrifice to be bruised, beaten, grieved and made sick in our place. The wrath of God was poured out on Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ was not sent to this world to condemn the world. He was sent that this world might be saved.
Originally Posted by Simon Peter
That’s funny, I’ve never stood in a circle with a stone. But I have used my words to warn fellow sheep of dangerous wolves that are circling the flock. Perhaps that's what you meant?
The way in which you warn others is reminiscent of those who were all too anxious to stone the woman caught in adultery. While you may have never actually stood in a circle with a stone, you regularly choose judgment instead of mercy, just like those people who were ready to toss the stones.
Tobias hit the nail on the head when he said;
Originally Posted by Tobias
The bottom line: some of us were too busy looking past Todd to see our Lord and Saviour, and couldn't care less what he was doing. Others weren't ever able to see past the man, to partake in what the Spirit was doing.
So while you are focused on the "dangerous wolves that are circling the flock", you completely miss what the Spirit of God did in spite of Todd Bentley.
__________________ "You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you."
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