I guess you could label me as a "seeker" as I've spent the past several years trying to figure out God/religion/faith/Christianity. I've read a lot of apologetics books in my quest to understand all this. Since, by nature, I'm a very analytical person, facts speak to me much more than emotions and feelings, which has made it extremely difficult for me to come to a point where I can truly understand this whole faith thing.
Having said that, I think I've grasped the concept of God as the creator of the universe and life. There are actually many facts in our world that support the concept of God as the creator of life. My analytical nature is, for the most part, satisfied by these facts so I'm not a seeker from that perspective. The Deist sees God as a hands-off creator who, once He created the universe and life, really has nothing more to do with us. That would sum up my understanding of God right now.
However, when it comes to understanding the concept of God as a "personal God," who loves me, cares for me, and desires to have a relationship with me, I just don't get it. It doesn't make sense to me. There seems to be a huge wall that is preventing me from going any further into the "personal" realm -- that is, understanding God as a personal God.
Going to church is downright depressing. Walking into church with 1,000 people who do "get it" makes me feel inferior (I know many in church don't really get it, many are afraid to admit they don't get it), defective, and just plain old dumb. What do they know that I don't? is what I'm thinking. How could so many people be singing along with "Jesus is my boyfriend" as if He was physically present and listening, when I don't experience that. I always leave church more skeptical than I do when I enter.
I guess experiencing the emotional, personal side of God is either something I'm not wired to understand. I'm not much of a touchy-feely person, so when it comes to having to base a relationship with someone I can't see entirely on emotions and love, that just doesn't compute for me. Praying is a good example. I feel pretty strange praying, because to me it just feels like I'm talking to myself, which is really weird (to me) since it's directed toward someone else.
How does one, who might be called emotionally bankrupt, ever connect to a person (God) who is based purely on emotions (e.g., love)? I can convince myself until the cows come home that there is a creator, but trying to have a relationship with an invisible being is just too far out there for me to ever understand.
How does one, who might be called emotionally bankrupt, ever connect to a person (God) who is based purely on emotions (e.g., love)? I can convince myself until the cows come home that there is a creator, but trying to have a relationship with an invisible being is just too far out there for me to ever understand.
Well the first key in this is to realize it is a relationship. Let me use an example. Let's say you meet a girl, and you've heard that she's really a sweet girl, and she's very pretty, and you've read all about her. In that first meeting, will you declare your undying love for her and seek marriage and children within the end of that day? I know it sounds rediculous, but that's not how relationships are supposed to work. Some people when they first believe in God, enter in that relationship right away and just get it. But for most people, it's a relationship that takes growth. Your relationship in God isn't any different then building a relationship with a real person. You need to be able to trust Him, care about the things He cares about, believe that He is truthful and concerned about you and that you should be the same to Him, And eventually, to love Him because of who He is, and because of how He loves you.
There's no timeline on this stuff and just because you aren't praising God with all you have at every moment doesn't mean you're a bad person or emotionally bankrupt. You just need some time to grow in this relationship.
So how do you grow? The best start would be to read the Bible. I know that sounds like a cookie cutter answer, but you won't be able to properly know and love God, if you don't know about God. I'd recommend starting with the gospels, especially the gospel of John. Learn about who Jesus is. His sacrifice and ressurection is amazing and the foundation of Christianity, but that isn't all that He is.
Also, it would help to get involved with people who do have a strong relationship with Jesus, to mentor you and guide you. That doesn't necessarily mean going to church. Maybe try and find a Bible study. Or try to befriend some Christians and just hang out with them, anywhere, doing any activity. If you put yourself around people who get it, they can guide you so much better then random strangers.
Good luck in your walk and I'll be praying for you bro!
__________________ Death is not the greatest loss in life. The greatest loss is what dies inside us while we live.
"This is my prayer in the desert. When all that's within me feels dry. This is my prayer in my hunger and need, my God is the God who provides. This is my prayer in the fire. In weakness or trial or pain. There is a faith proved in more worth then gold, so refine me Lord through the flame!" Hillsong United - Desert song
Hi Trustgod, you are right. The people who actually knew Jesus in the flesh had it way better than those who believe in the name of Jesus. To believe in the name means to believe what we have heard about Jesus, what Jesus is know for - virgin birth, life without sin, death on the cross, resurrection, and then ascension. And how can you, who does not believe God would send a Messiah to save believers, since He takes a hands off approach, believe in the name of Jesus? Tough row to hoe.
There are "other" churches than the one you attend. Perhaps you should look for one that is a bit more analytical, and a little less touchy feely/warm and fuzzy.
__________________ If I do not respond in a timely manor to your post, I invite you to send me a PM or a E/M to remind me of your situation. I'm having a hard time keeping up with everyone, and sometimes the squeakiest wheel gets the grease.
The only way that non-Christians can finally "get it" is by reading (or hearing) what God himself says in the Bible. For "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). And when reading (or hearing) what God says in the Bible, people have to be very careful not to harden their hearts (or minds) against him: "While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts" (Hebrews 3:15).
It is good to analyse, it means you make a reasoned decision about believing. But at some point faith has to take over and you have to accept that what God says is true.
You problem with the issue of emotion is that faith is not based upon emotion, when it is people are blown about every which way and struggle when things go wrong.
To me faith is based on trust. God says it, I trust it, how I feel about it is irrelevant.
Part of the other problem is with the word "love". In western culture love is a flimsy thing, here today gone tomorrow. Gods love is an everlasting expression of who he is, solid and dependable.
Try looking at the words the original language the bible was written in for a better understanding. Hebrew for the old testament and greek for the new testament. Gods solid love in greek is the word "agape"
Hope this helps you with your journey.
__________________ "God is the ultimate stalker" Emily Spencer, Oct 09 (used by permission)
And how can you, who does not believe God would send a Messiah to save believers, since He takes a hands off approach, believe in the name of Jesus? Tough row to hoe.
Not quite sure what you're getting at here. Tongue-in-cheek, or calling me out as intellectually dishonest?
Last edited by trustgod; 20th October 2009 at 10:14 AM.
Reason: Typo
Well the first key in this is to realize it is a relationship. Let me use an example. Let's say you meet a girl, and you've heard that she's really a sweet girl, and she's very pretty, and you've read all about her. In that first meeting, will you declare your undying love for her and seek marriage and children within the end of that day? I know it sounds rediculous, but that's not how relationships are supposed to work. Some people when they first believe in God, enter in that relationship right away and just get it. But for most people, it's a relationship that takes growth. Your relationship in God isn't any different then building a relationship with a real person. You need to be able to trust Him, care about the things He cares about, believe that He is truthful and concerned about you and that you should be the same to Him, And eventually, to love Him because of who He is, and because of how He loves you.
Good analogy, but there's one fatal flaw. That really sweet girl -- I can see her, hear her, etc. Through the use of my senses (eyes, ears, etc.) I can know without a shadow of a doubt that she exists and as such, can use that knowledge to form an understanding of her (what does she wear, how does she talk, etc.) and therefore make a decision on whether she is someone I actually do want a relationship with. Not so with God. What does he look like? What does his voice sound like? Do we know without a shadow of a doubt that he really actually does exist (i.e., do we have direct proof)? Because I seem to be in the majority of folks (at least here, anyways) that needs more evidence/proof than most, I can't use those data points to form an understanding of and base a relationship with him on.
I'm sure I'll hear all kinds of answers how there is no difference between the girl and God; that we can hear God; that we can see God; etc. But, you have to admit, there is a difference from seeing someone here, in person, and experiencing God. I just relate to the physical plane and anything not on it leaves me skeptical.
Originally Posted by kevlite2020
So how do you grow? The best start would be to read the Bible. I know that sounds like a cookie cutter answer, but you won't be able to properly know and love God, if you don't know about God. I'd recommend starting with the gospels, especially the gospel of John. Learn about who Jesus is. His sacrifice and ressurection is amazing and the foundation of Christianity, but that isn't all that He is.
No offense, but that is a cookie cutter answer. Actually, I have read the Bible. Here I am, still questioning things, though.
I honestly think there are some people who are predisposed to not being able to grasp things of a spiritual nature. Like myself, who is an overly (extreme?) analytical person, facts rule the day. And the fact is, nobody can without a shadow of a doubt prove the existence of God. Sure, there is a lot of evidence that might allow one to make a strong case for God's existence, but God cannot be proven (nor disproven, I realize that). So, like many others, I'm sure, it's difficult for me to "get it."
I admit it's a nice concept, and it does have some level of appeal for me, but making the leap from liking it in concept, to being a believer, just isn't happening.
Going to church is downright depressing. Walking into church with 1,000 people who do "get it" makes me feel inferior (I know many in church don't really get it, many are afraid to admit they don't get it), defective, and just plain old dumb. What do they know that I don't? is what I'm thinking. How could so many people be singing along with "Jesus is my boyfriend" as if He was physically present and listening, when I don't experience that. I always leave church more skeptical than I do when I enter.
Singing along with "Jesus is my boyfriend"? LOL! What kind of church are you attending?!
I guess experiencing the emotional, personal side of God is either something I'm not wired to understand. I'm not much of a touchy-feely person, so when it comes to having to base a relationship with someone I can't see entirely on emotions and love, that just doesn't compute for me.
Hmmm...Is there no one in your life who you love? If there is, maybe pondering the love you have for that person can enlighten you somewhat as to how to love God.
I don't see anywhere in Scripture where we are asked to walk with God "entirely on emotions." We are told, instead,"the just shall live by faith," and "without faith it impossible to please God," and that "he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Of course, no one normally puts their faith in someone they don't know. So, behind the biblical injunctions to have faith in God is the idea that we would know God intimately. Paul the apostle put it this way:
2 Timothy 1:12 (NKJV)
"...for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day."
For Paul, there was a distinct progression from knowledge of God to fulling committing himself to God: Knowledge>belief>commitment. I don't think you can come to the place where you love God without going through this progression yourself.
How does one come to know God? The Bible tells us that it is in its pages that one finds God's primary revelation of Himself. As someone in this thread has already noted, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." Ro. 10:17
Can you have faith in God without loving Him? Possibly. God makes it pretty clear, though, that our relationship with Him is to be motivated by love. He doesn't demand that we love Him in a vacuum, however. God isn't saying, "You gotta' love me!" without reason. Ideally, He intends that we would love Him as a result of coming to know Him and His love for us through study of His Word.
1 John 4:19 (NKJV)
"We love Him because He first loved us."
As one studies the Scriptures and reads of God's incredible efforts to reconcile wicked humanity to Himself, as one discovers how far God was willing to go to save us from ourselves, one begins to understand the massive depths of His love for all people. This understanding, in turn, ought to engender in oneself a love for God.
It is more than just understanding the lengths to which God went to save us from our sin that ought to cause us to love Him, however. Consider the following passage of Scripture:
Luke 7:36-47 (NKJV)
36 Then one of the Pharisees asked Him to eat with him. And He went to the Pharisee's house, and sat down to eat.
37 And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at the table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil,
38 and stood at His feet behind Him weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed them with the fragrant oil.
39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he spoke to himself, saying, "This man, if He were a prophet, would know who and what manner of woman this is who is touching Him, for she is a sinner."
40 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Simon, I have something to say to you." So he said, "Teacher, say it."
41 "There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?"
43 Simon answered and said, "I suppose the one whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have rightly judged."
44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head.
45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in.
46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil.
47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little."
What was the difference between Simon the Pharisee and the weeping woman? The woman knew how desperately sinful she was while Simon was completely oblivious to the fact that he was equally, if not more, sinful. Simon, as a result of his blindness, of his pride, had no love for Christ. The woman's acknowledgement of her sin and her complete unworthiness of God's loving forgiveness, on the other hand, gave rise in her to an overpowering gratefulness and love for Jesus, her Saviour. You can see, then, that love for God is produced 1.) Through understanding His love for you in the sacrifice of His only Son, Jesus Christ. 2.) Acknowledging your sinfulness and utter unworthiness of such a sacrifice.
I think, when the full import of God's love strikes a person, tears are often the result. But this doesn't mean that one must go about loving God in some never-ending state of maudlin weepiness. In fact, God tells us that the prime way we show our love for Him isn't in raising our arms skyward, closing our eyes, and swaying back and forth as we sing about how "Jesus is our boyfriend," but in obeying God's commands. Love, in the godly sense of the word is evidenced toward God, first and foremost, in obedient action, not in mushy sentimentalism.
Praying is a good example. I feel pretty strange praying, because to me it just feels like I'm talking to myself, which is really weird (to me) since it's directed toward someone else.
The Bible says that when God's Spirit comes to dwell within a person, that person has an "inner witness" of their new, spiritual birth. That inner witness, that divine connection to God, gives you an awareness of Him that makes prayer vital and real. That you don't have this experience suggests that you have yet to be "born again." Until that happens, God will continue to seem at a distance to you.
How does one, who might be called emotionally bankrupt, ever connect to a person (God) who is based purely on emotions (e.g., love)? I can convince myself until the cows come home that there is a creator, but trying to have a relationship with an invisible being is just too far out there for me to ever understand.
God is not "based purely on emotion." Where in the Bible do you read that?
If you have determined that a relationship with God is beyond you, then it is not surprising that this is your experience. A relationship with God is only as impossible as you decide it is.
Good analogy, but there's one fatal flaw. That really sweet girl -- I can see her, hear her, etc. Through the use of my senses (eyes, ears, etc.) I can know without a shadow of a doubt that she exists and as such, can use that knowledge to form an understanding of her (what does she wear, how does she talk, etc.) and therefore make a decision on whether she is someone I actually do want a relationship with. Not so with God. What does he look like? What does his voice sound like? Do we know without a shadow of a doubt that he really actually does exist (i.e., do we have direct proof)? Because I seem to be in the majority of folks (at least here, anyways) that needs more evidence/proof than most, I can't use those data points to form an understanding of and base a relationship with him on.
I'm sure I'll hear all kinds of answers how there is no difference between the girl and God; that we can hear God; that we can see God; etc. But, you have to admit, there is a difference from seeing someone here, in person, and experiencing God. I just relate to the physical plane and anything not on it leaves me skeptical.
You're right, I would never argue those things. It is certainly easier to love something that you can physically see, hold, hear, all those things. I wasn't trying to convince you that God can be physically seen and all. I'm just trying to point out that the way to grow a relationship with God is the same as you would a person you can actually see. Learning as much as you can about them, communicating with them as much as you can, caring about and being interested in and loving the same things and people as He does, etc. Does that make sense? Sorry but just got off a long day at work and I am really hoping this doesn't turn into an unhelpful ramble
No offense, but that is a cookie cutter answer. Actually, I have read the Bible. Here I am, still questioning things, though.
I honestly think there are some people who are predisposed to not being able to grasp things of a spiritual nature. Like myself, who is an overly (extreme?) analytical person, facts rule the day. And the fact is, nobody can without a shadow of a doubt prove the existence of God. Sure, there is a lot of evidence that might allow one to make a strong case for God's existence, but God cannot be proven (nor disproven, I realize that). So, like many others, I'm sure, it's difficult for me to "get it."
I admit it's a nice concept, and it does have some level of appeal for me, but making the leap from liking it in concept, to being a believer, just isn't happening.
No offense taken It's a cookie cutter answer for a reason though, because for many people, it either works, or it at least helps quite a bit. I understand you are more analytical then the average bear so just reading about Him may not be enough to teach you how to love Him, even if you do believe in Him. What I'm about to tell you, I have a feeling that you won't believe that I'm being truthful, but I'll take that risk to try to explain my experience. I truly think God can be known by man absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt. The thing that makes it tricky is that you have to invite Him in and believe first. I remember getting baptized (at 24, I've only been a believer for a bit over a year). Before my baptism, I was pretty sure God was real, I had been praying, reading the Bible for awhile, getting in Bible study/fellowship groups, the whole nine yards. But I still was a little bit shaky. When I left from my baptism, there was no more doubt. From the experiences that happened just within me, I understood and knew that God was real. You could talk about the placebo effect all day, but I wasn't ever told what I would feel or suppose to feel, I wasn't under any pressure, the feelings that ran through me just came, and I knew it was God.
If you can humble yourself before God and have complete faith in Jesus, you will be reaffirmed by Him and you will know. The hard part is getting to that step, because it certainly does take a leap of faith.
__________________ Death is not the greatest loss in life. The greatest loss is what dies inside us while we live.
"This is my prayer in the desert. When all that's within me feels dry. This is my prayer in my hunger and need, my God is the God who provides. This is my prayer in the fire. In weakness or trial or pain. There is a faith proved in more worth then gold, so refine me Lord through the flame!" Hillsong United - Desert song
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