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19th October 2009, 05:17 AM
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19th October 2009, 08:43 AM
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Hi all,
I want to know your thoughts on this issue. Especially those of you who self-identified as rightwing.
Are the two completely different? Or they share certain thing, but still quite different? Or are they essentially the same?
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20th October 2009, 09:28 PM
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Reps: 3,302,127,322,998,233 (power: 3,302,127,323,011) | | Originally Posted by jayem  They both sound a lot better in theory, than they actually work in reality.
"Collectivism" is a rather catch-all term, care to be a little more specific?
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24th October 2009, 04:18 AM
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Reps: 5,350,348,693,047 (power: 5,350,348,696) | | | Okay, to put the question into other words, do any ppl here consider brotherhood a form of collectivism?
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27th October 2009, 01:02 AM
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27th October 2009, 01:10 AM
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Reps: 476,218,617,401,146,624 (power: 476,218,617,401,184) | | Originally Posted by libertarianSkeptic747 Okay, to put the question into other words, do any ppl here consider brotherhood a form of collectivism?
Not me. 
tulc(that was pretty easy) 
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27th October 2009, 09:17 PM
|  | phased plasma rifle in 40-watt range
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Reps: 19,391,142,157,809,696 (power: 19,391,142,157,824) | | Originally Posted by libertarianSkeptic747 Okay, to put the question into other words, do any ppl here consider brotherhood a form of collectivism?
I consider brotherhood to be hard-wired into human reproductive biology. If one set of parents has multiple male offspring, then, viola! You have brotherhood. Families are the simplest collective. If you are an Objectivist, and you consider collectivism to be evil, this means ipso facto you consider the family evil. This is why I don't give much credence to Objectivism, since it contradicts human biology. Where ideologies conflict with physical reality, the ideology usually ends up the bug on the windshield.
If you are not an Objectivist, your mileage may vary. |
27th October 2009, 10:10 PM
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Reps: 4,764,076,357,041,536,000 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by TheNewWorldMan I consider brotherhood to be hard-wired into human reproductive biology. If one set of parents has multiple male offspring, then, viola! You have brotherhood. Families are the simplest collective. If you are an Objectivist, and you consider collectivism to be evil, this means ipso facto you consider the family evil. This is why I don't give much credence to Objectivism, since it contradicts human biology. Where ideologies conflict with physical reality, the ideology usually ends up the bug on the windshield.
If you are not an Objectivist, your mileage may vary.
"Collectivism does not preach sacrifice as a temporary means to some desirable end. Sacrifice is its end—sacrifice as a way of life. It is man’s independence, success, prosperity, and happiness that collectivists wish to destroy.
Observe the snarling, hysterical hatred with which they greet any suggestion that sacrifice is not necessary, that a non-sacrificial society is possible to men, that it is the only society able to achieve man’s well-being." Ayn Rand
At least now you can finally say you have actually read something she wrote. Hmm...you know. It is almost like she had certain people in mind when she wrote that quote.  |
27th October 2009, 10:32 PM
| | phased plasma rifle in 40-watt range
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Reps: 19,391,142,157,809,696 (power: 19,391,142,157,824) | | Originally Posted by lordbt "Collectivism does not preach sacrifice as a temporary means to some desirable end. Sacrifice is its end—sacrifice as a way of life. It is man’s independence, success, prosperity, and happiness that collectivists wish to destroy.
Observe the snarling, hysterical hatred with which they greet any suggestion that sacrifice is not necessary, that a non-sacrificial society is possible to men, that it is the only society able to achieve man’s well-being." Ayn Rand
At least now you can finally say you have actually read something she wrote. Hmm...you know. It is almost like she had certain people in mind when she wrote that quote.
And examples of these societies where no one ever does anything altruistic and everyone is happy are...
Oh, that's right. Objectivism has never actually been practiced on even a tribal scale in the real world.
This is the real world. You'll have to provide a better argument than a quote from a science fiction novel. |
27th October 2009, 10:53 PM
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Reps: 4,764,076,357,041,536,000 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by TheNewWorldMan And examples of these societies where no one ever does anything altruistic and everyone is happy are...
How did you derive that statement from the quote I posted? Oh, that's right. Objectivism has never actually been practiced on even a tribal scale in the real world.
Is that your way of refuting that quote or is this just your usual non sequitur? This is the real world. You'll have to provide a better argument than a quote from a science fiction novel.
That quote is from a non fiction essay. Want more?
"Collectivism holds that the individual has no rights, that his life and work belong to the group . . . and that the group may sacrifice him at its own whim to its own interests. The only way to implement a doctrine of that kind is by means of brute force—and statism has always been the political corollary of collectivism." Ayn Rand
Since you continue to belittle and misrepresent Ayn Rand and Objectivism, maybe the best way to deal with you is this sort of cut and paste response. Since your argument is with her, I should just let her argue back. On second thought, that is too much effort. The ignore button is much simpler and was probably designed for people like you. So, if you plan to launch into one of your timeless rants, save your energy, I wont see it. | | |
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