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18th October 2009, 07:40 PM
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Romans 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.   
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2 Timothy 2 : 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. |
21st October 2009, 12:09 AM
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Reps: 62,423,191,749,994,920 (power: 62,423,191,749,998) | | Originally Posted by Carey  Romans 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
That's quite a leap of faith to make. |
21st October 2009, 08:12 AM
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Reps: 65,931,192,074,335,696 (power: 65,931,192,074,350) | | Originally Posted by bsd31 That's quite a leap of faith to make.
Indeed, it does. This in no way excuses them any more than it excuses Christians from judgment. I would not want to be in their shoes since they are relying upon God's grace and mercy to save them from their eternal spiritual death which is immanent from trying to obey the law. Even if they try to obey the law of their hearts, they still don't obey perfectly as required by Paul's discourse. Paul also says that there is deceit in their hearts. We do what we know that we shouldn't as well as not do what we know that we should. The bottom line is that if they don't obey the nudge they get from the Holy Spirit in the signs that he sends them, they are not going to be saved. In one way or another, they will have to bow to Jesus. Exactly how that will happen is beyond our knowledge given to us in scripture. As always, we must weigh our thoughts and beliefs with the full weight of scripture. Isolating them will often lead us to error of some degree.
Last edited by peaceful soul; 21st October 2009 at 08:13 AM.
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21st October 2009, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by peaceful soul Indeed, it does. This in no way excuses them any more than it excuses Christians from judgment. I would not want to be in their shoes since they are relying upon God's grace and mercy to save them from their eternal spiritual death which is immanent from trying to obey the law. Even if they try to obey the law of their hearts, they still don't obey perfectly as required by Paul's discourse. Paul also says that there is deceit in their hearts. We do what we know that we shouldn't as well as not do what we know that we should. The bottom line is that if they don't obey the nudge they get from the Holy Spirit in the signs that he sends them, they are not going to be saved. In one way or another, they will have to bow to Jesus. Exactly how that will happen is beyond our knowledge given to us in scripture. As always, we must weigh our thoughts and beliefs with the full weight of scripture. Isolating them will often lead us to error of some degree.
They will bow to Jesus in the resurrection.
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2 Timothy 2 : 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. |
21st October 2009, 03:02 PM
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Reps: 65,931,192,074,335,696 (power: 65,931,192,074,350) | | Originally Posted by Carey They will bow to Jesus in the resurrection.
What I am saying is that they will have to recognize Jesus and acknowledge Him before they die. They will bow at some point, but they may not have acknowledged what God had put in their minds or manifested to them in their thoughts and heart and followed that nudge so that they could be redeemed by the works of Christ. I hope that I explained it better. |
24th October 2009, 07:05 PM
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Reps: 25,429,990,596,319,048 (power: 25,429,990,596,329) | | Originally Posted by peaceful soul What I am saying is that they will have to recognize Jesus and acknowledge Him before they die. They will bow at some point, but they may not have acknowledged what God had put in their minds or manifested to them in their thoughts and heart and followed that nudge so that they could be redeemed by the works of Christ. I hope that I explained it better. So you believe God has instilled the belief that Jesus is God and that God is a Trinity in the minds, thoughts, and hearts of everyone?
Or did you mean something else by this?
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Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true. -Buddha
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27th October 2009, 07:42 AM
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Reps: 65,931,192,074,335,696 (power: 65,931,192,074,350) | | Originally Posted by humblemuslim So you believe God has instilled the belief that Jesus is God and that God is a Trinity in the minds, thoughts, and hearts of everyone?
Or did you mean something else by this?
I didn't specify what you said, but it could be a possibility; however, after they die, they will know that Jesus is Lord and their savior. I am only communicating that they will have been given enough information while alive to realize that they have encountered God and are held responsible for what they did or didn't acknowledged about Him. The key idea that I am relaying to you is that they have something planted in their minds and hearts that leads them to know that God is the only one that can ultimately save them from their sins. For some, it is visions of Jesus in their dreams, and for others, it is some kind of conviction that they may get from a humbling experience in their lives. I hope that you get the idea better.
Thanks for asking. |
27th October 2009, 08:26 AM
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Reps: 159,784,663,935,918,112 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by peaceful soul What I am saying is that they will have to recognize Jesus and acknowledge Him before they die. They will bow at some point, but they may not have acknowledged what God had put in their minds or manifested to them in their thoughts and heart and followed that nudge so that they could be redeemed by the works of Christ. I hope that I explained it better.
So you think God's grace depends upon the individual's actions after all - and not even on the Big Picture, but only upon their religious affiliation? How is it grace, then, and not "works" limited to a single course of action?
I've always felt that Christians who have a problem with universalism are missing the point of Divine Grace altogether - probably because they cannot stand the thought of sharing salvation with "them", the others, the ones who do not measure up to their definition of "us". |
27th October 2009, 06:23 PM
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Reps: 449,146,267,979,360,896 (power: 449,146,267,979,370) | | | Yes, they will be forced to bow to Jesus then.
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-Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
-Abortion - 45 million dead babies and growing
**Proverbs 6:16-17 - states that there are seven things that are an abomination to the Lord; one of them is the shedding of innocent blood.
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28th October 2009, 06:13 AM
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Reps: 159,784,663,935,918,112 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by salida Yes, they will be forced to bow to Jesus then.
Does it take much forcing? I don't think so.
I know that many Christians think of Non-Christians as people who "reject Jesus" - but that's not how it works for the most part. It's more of a question of diverging world views, of different ways of making sense of the universe that surrounds us. Believe it or not, most Non-Christians do not actively "reject Jesus": that premise pretty much assumes that you KNOW Christianity to be the One True Religion and then walk away, rejecting the offer that you know to be more than just a fanciful myth.
Now, let's imagine that I arise from the grave on the End of Days, finding myself in front of the Christian God. Sure, it would be a HUGE surprise, a mind-shattering revelation, and living proof that I've been wrong about pretty much everything as far as my religious world view was concerned. But don't think for one second that I'd have any trouble adapting to this new line of information. I'd be just as sincere in my veneration of the One True God as the next-best Christian - and I wouldn't even expect any special treatment or reward in return.
The thing is: nothing I've ever come across points in that direction. Quite the contrary - the more I study Christianity and various other religions, the more I feel that these operate on a very limited set of information, interpreting it in a way that seems rather simplistic to me. Now, I never discard the possibility that I could be wrong about pretty much everything; that's why I consider my studies to be an open-ended process, a neverending journey of expanding horizons.
But as I said: nothing points in the direction of Christianity being the One True Religion. If your God wants to save me in his great mercy and love, He should feel free to correct my mistakes - especially if he's arbitrarily concluded that my number will be up the moment I bite the dust.  | | |
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