Bible says muslim suicide bomber and atheist may go to heaven??

RMDY · #51 4th November 2009, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by Carey

yep here is their way after the resurrection.

Romans 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,( because they are Muslim and have always been taught false things and have never heard the truth ) do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I disagree and I urge you repent of the false teaching that, people who are slaves of Satan and children of wrath by nature, can be saved without Jesus.

Wicked Willow · #52 4th November 2009, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by RMDY

I disagree and I urge you repent of the false teaching that, people who are slaves of Satan and children of wrath by nature, can be saved without Jesus.

Who says they are saved without Jesus? Obviously, they are saved BY Jesus.

RMDY · #53 4th November 2009, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Wicked Willow

Who says they are saved without Jesus? Obviously, they are saved BY Jesus.

But they need to repent and believe in him for starters....

Wicked Willow · #54 4th November 2009, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by RMDY

But they need to repent and believe in him for starters....

Why would they have to do that? Mercy is undeserved and freely given, remember? You don't acquire it by earning it.

Carey · #55 4th November 2009, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by rcscwc

Good hearts and mass murders? Oxymoron.

If a person is raised their whole life that the right thing to do is blow yourself up and kill a few to save many and you do it to save many do you have a bad heart??

Romans 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Carey · #56 4th November 2009, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by RMDY

I disagree and I urge you repent of the false teaching that, people who are slaves of Satan and children of wrath by nature, can be saved without Jesus.

Is Jesus not doing the saving in these scriptures ??

Romans 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

RMDY · #57 5th November 2009, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by Wicked Willow

Why would they have to do that? Mercy is undeserved and freely given, remember? You don't acquire it by earning it.

Jesus and the apostles clearly taught taught repentance and believing in Jesus.

Repentance is responding to God's undeserved mercy, not earning it.

Let's say I am condemned to go to prison because I did something wrong. However, the judge is merciful because he loves me and offers me the chance to not go to jail if I only believe that he has pardoned me because of his undeserved mercy, I have two responses. I can either repent and believe in him and acquire what he has given me, or I can be stubborn and be unrepentance and unbelieving and go to jail.

So then I put repent and believing in the judge what he has done for me and live by that. Then he lets me go from the punishment that I deserved to get. As a judge he had to condemn me to jail, but out of love he made a way for me to escape it because of his undeserved mercy.

Do you see what I am trying to say...

peaceful soul · #58 5th November 2009, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by Wicked Willow

Why would they have to do that? Mercy is undeserved and freely given, remember? You don't acquire it by earning it.

But, you don't get saved without repentance, which means a turning away from something and a turning toward something else. There is no true repentance if there is no discernment of what you are doing wrong and are also willing for God to cover you.

Mercy is not getting what you deserve and grace is getting what you don't deserve. In context of God, He shows mercy by not condemning us if we repent and shows us grace by placing our sins on His Son who then mediates for us on our behalf. These are dualistic concepts. One can never be taken without the other.

Grace may be freely given, but it is not free. There is a price for that act. That is part of the reason that we can't save ourselves, but must rely upon the salvation of Christ who paid the price for us; for we can't pay it ourselves.

Wicked Willow · #59 5th November 2009, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by RMDY

Jesus and the apostles clearly taught taught repentance and believing in Jesus.

Is that so? What of the "Lord, Lord"-criers? Or the goat and the sheep of the parable? And, most importantly, what did Jesus try to communicate when he told an audience to believe in him?

Repentance is responding to God's undeserved mercy, not earning it.

Exactly. But such a reaction isn't necessary for the mercy to be there.

Let's say I am condemned to go to prison because I did something wrong. However, the judge is merciful because he loves me and offers me the chance to not go to jail if I only believe that he has pardoned me because of his undeserved mercy, I have two responses. I can either repent and believe in him and acquire what he has given me, or I can be stubborn and be unrepentance and unbelieving and go to jail.

You do realize that this is a completely unrealistic scenario, don't you?
Can you imagine a judge asking: "Do you believe that I have pardoned you [or else you go to jail]?" Frankly speaking, that's ridiculous nonsense. He's just pronounced me pardoned, so what is there not to believe?
Besides, the accused's reaction has no bearing on the sentence either way - unless somebody appeals against the judgment, but this in turn is a legal process rather than a question of the accused's preferences. You can no more choose to go to prison when pardoned than you can choose NOT to go to prison when sentenced.

Your analogy perfectly illustrates the absurdity that I was trying to draw attention to: mercy happens on the part of the forgiving party, and whether the forgiven party agrees, disagrees, or even notices has no bearing whatsoever on that act.

Let's say that there's a thief in the neighbourhood who has stolen my bike. Now, when I decide to forgive him, then it doesn't really matter whether he even knows that I have forgiven him, or even whether he continues in his ways. The moment I decide to forgive, it is done. He may ignore it, he may deny it, he may even ridicule me for it - that doesn't change the fact that I've forgiven him already. (Naturally, a culprit who clearly repents of his misdeeds is more likely to inspire mercy in us, and forgiving a person who is out to harm you may not be the best course of action - but that doesn't change the fact that forgiveness is given, not earned.)

benmaarof · #60 5th November 2009, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Carey

Romans 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Who's Gospel? Does it meant Paul's "Gospel"? Nowhere in the prophesies of the Testament prophets & also in the recollections of the "Gospel of Jesus" by John, Luke, Mark and Matthew were a person in the form of Paul of Tarsus would come and people should listen to him. Paul teaches very different things than Jesus (more often opposites). Paul teachings were monumental. If he had not come along and wrote his Letters, people would have very different perceptions of Jesus and worshiped God and thought of Him in very different ways. So, why should we believe him? Did Jesus ever asked us to trust him (Paul) with our faith?