The Sufis are the vast minority. They have a much more spiritual rather than religious view of Islam and the Koran. They believe in a very close personal relationship with the Divine. The are the ones who have the famous whirling dervishes. (
You may say they are the Charismatics of Islam. The Sunnis are the Protestants and the Shia are the Catholics ( no seriously they are the same in comparison because they also have clerical hierarchy like the ayatollahs, imams etc and the holy city of Qom in Iran is like a spiritual hub for the Shia - religious centre and place where Shias from around the world to come and find answers. They also, like Catholics, pray to imams to intercede on their behalf ). This is what infuriates the Sunni.
But no, Sufi and radical/bloodshed never in the same sentence.
Praised is Adonai our God, Sovereign of the Universe, who has given us a Torah of truth, implanting within us eternal life. Praised is Adonai, Giver of the Torah.
Praised is Adonai our God, Sovereign of the Universe, who has given us a Torah of truth, implanting within us eternal life. Praised is Adonai, Giver of the Torah.
The Sufis are the vast minority. They have a much more spiritual rather than religious view of Islam and the Koran. They believe in a very close personal relationship with the Divine. The are the ones who have the famous whirling dervishes. (
You may say they are the Charismatics of Islam. The Sunnis are the Protestants and the Shia are the Catholics ( no seriously they are the same in comparison because they also have clerical hierarchy like the ayatollahs, imams etc and the holy city of Qom in Iran is like a spiritual hub for the Shia - religious centre and place where Shias from around the world to come and find answers. They also, like Catholics, pray to imams to intercede on their behalf ). This is what infuriates the Sunni.
But no, Sufi and radical/bloodshed never in the same sentence.
Praised is Adonai our God, Sovereign of the Universe, who has given us a Torah of truth, implanting within us eternal life. Praised is Adonai, Giver of the Torah.
Praised is Adonai our God, Sovereign of the Universe, who has given us a Torah of truth, implanting within us eternal life. Praised is Adonai, Giver of the Torah.
one could say exactly the same about... Christians and the Bible
Point taken, but in the Bible almost the only time you see a God who doesn't want humanity saved and simply smitten because they do not believe in Him and submit is when you take Scripture out of context.
Jesus Himself, who was and is God, said that if you do not want to choose Him ( everlasting Life and salvation), so be it. It is your choice. It would be unfortunate for you to choose so because what He offers is free and because He loves all humanity.
Another Scripture in the Bible that contradicts the versus of a Koranic God bent on killing all who do not submit is John 3v16:
For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life. - Amplified Bible, the bold part was boldened by me.
Look what the Koran versions are: (in brackets are the suras and versus in the Koran)
.
"God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (2:15).
"God's curse be upon the infidels!" (2:89).
"God is the enemy of the unbelievers" (2:98).
"The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews], and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2:105).
"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter" (2:114).
"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2:162).
"The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing" (2:172)
Praised is Adonai our God, Sovereign of the Universe, who has given us a Torah of truth, implanting within us eternal life. Praised is Adonai, Giver of the Torah.
Last edited by ShabbatShalom; 29th October 2009 at 11:26 AM.
I think the Qur'an is what it is (and that's a profoundly negative document in some aspects) but the religion itself is too diverse to say that there's no moderate versions of it.
But that is what is strange about the Koran. It is like a huge grocery store where you can pick out whatever you like - if you are moderate there are Scriptures for you, if you are fanatic there are more than enough Scriptures for you to load up on.
But what is the central message of the Bible? If you read the Bible from beginning to finish it is about a God who wants to liberate His people. And God respects your free will as a human to choose Him. The Scripture in the Old Testament says: I (God) have given you this day THE CHOICE between life and death. Choose life. And that "choose life" bit isn't an order, it is an urging in Love from the Almighty to choose correctly.
The central message of the Koran is very different. Yes, Allah is forgiving etc, but His prophet clearly states that either you submit ( the very meaning of the word ISLAM) or burn in the fire.
Praised is Adonai our God, Sovereign of the Universe, who has given us a Torah of truth, implanting within us eternal life. Praised is Adonai, Giver of the Torah.
Last edited by ShabbatShalom; 29th October 2009 at 11:38 AM.
Point taken, but in the Bible almost the only time you see a God who doesn't want humanity saved and simply smitten because they do not believe in Him and submit is when you take Scripture out of context.
Jesus Himself, who was and is God, said that if you do not want to choose Him ( everlasting Life and salvation), so be it. It is your choice. It would be unfortunate for you to choose so because what He offers is free and because He loves all humanity.
Another Scripture in the Bible that contradicts the versus of a Koranic God bent on killing all who do not submit is John 3v16:
For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life. - Amplified Bible, the bold part was boldened by me.
What about Matthew 10:34:
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."
And the commandment of Jesus in Luke 19:27:
"But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.”
Muslims think they are supposed to rule the earth. Christians think they are supposed to. I'm betting on the Christians.
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But that is what is strange about the Koran. It is like a huge grocery store where you can pick out whatever you like - if you are moderate there are Scriptures for you, if you are fanatic there are more than enough Scriptures for you to load up on.
That's how I see Christianity as well.
Originally Posted by ShabbatShalom
But what is the central message of the Bible? If you read the Bible from beginning to finish it is about a God who wants to liberate His people. And God respects your free will as a human to choose Him. The Scripture in the Old Testament says: I (God) have given you this day THE CHOICE between life and death. Choose life. And that "choose life" bit isn't an order, it is an urging in Love from the Almighty to choose correctly.
The central message of the Koran is very different. Yes, Allah is forgiving etc, but His prophet clearly states that either you submit ( the very meaning of the word ISLAM) or burn in the fire.
Jesus said: CHOOSE
Mohammed said: SUBMIT.
See the difference?
How do you explain the slave imagery in the Bible? Paul speaks of Christians as being the slaves of God. Yes, you choose to become a slave to Jesus, but that's the same in Islam.
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No, not when failing to either submit or make the "right" choice brings about the same result. There is essentially no differance, either situation could be interpreted as blackmail.
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