Actually, it's a hard truth explained in this passage:
"Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"" Romans 9:10-24
ya tell us...i dont feel like looking through the whole thing
by your question in the beginning
its obvious really
if nobody has temptation or falls then where is the glory?
we are created to bring Him Glory and not just be androids where we all go to heaven
its an old question just read about it in google...its so basic
the thread basically got into an argument about if God is omniscient, he determines everything we do, therefore if he determines everything we do, how can we have free will, if we don't have free will, why do he allow us to sin, why do we go to hell? And all the other usual arguments stemming from that sort of thing.
We do have free will in most things, but God determines others, like:
Where and when we will live, "he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live." Acts 17:27
Who shall be saved, "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will," Ephesians 1:11
Certain life purposes, like Paul was called to preach the gospel to the Gentiles, "Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you." (Acts 26:16) or Pharoah, "“I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”" (Rom. 9:17) and like we are all given different gifts by God with which to serve Him.
God mainly determines things more intricately in the life of believers, for unbelievers "God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts" (Rom. 1:24) and He doesn't determine what will happen to them so much, "Therefore Jesus told them, "The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right." John 7:6.
There's probably more to add, but since we were made "in the image of God" (Gen. 1:27) it can be assumed that we have our own will in certain matters and have been given power to do as we choose in certain matters by God. But God is still sovereign, and whatever His will is, who can resist it?
the thread basically got into an argument about if God is omniscient, he determines everything we do ...
There is the problem - I am far from convinced that God actually does 'determines everything'.
If I have to accept God's omniscience then I have to accept that God allows slavery, child prostitution, rape, murder, pillage .... you get the picture. In other words, I have to accept a God that does NOT demonstrate love towards his creation. Yet, the whole message of the Bible is one of LOVE. Jesus insists on LOVE as a reflection of God. But God does not need LOVE if we are programed - all he would need is conformity.
__________________ Not all those who wander are lost
As was explained numerous times in that thread, there is no problem.
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
How can a god be omniscience and allow people with free will go to hell?
"Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"" Romans 9:10-24
This whole problem is easily solved when we all realize that God doesn't send people to burning torment for billions of years. No qualms
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