It was not determined by God, making the option not God's choice, but yours. Just because I chose to respond to your post does not mean I am forced to.
That's not what I was saying. I was saying God knew you were going to respond to my post.
You assume that God is controlling the game and decides who gets what card. This is an inaccurate assumption.
No... that's the beauty of my analogy. I'm not saying he's controlling the cards... I'm saying that due to his knowledge, he knows which are coming next.
The only position it leaves us in is the position of God having foreknowledge, and that is not predestination.
No, predestination is a consequence of God having total foreknowledge.
I suggest you stop using the NIV to make your arguments for you
The irony of this is just awesome.
It's not being angry, you have no evidence of that. In fact, by saying that, you are doing exactly what you claim God is doing: imputing a wrong.
1 Kings 11:9
Numbers 22:22
You have not shown how the actions are not loving. In attempting to do so, you yourself did something unloving. Therefore, your claim is empty of substance.
That's because these actions are SELF-EVIDENTLY not loving.
Love:
a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
Parents don't burn their children for a long period of time. For any period of time for that matter. When you love someone, you care only for their best interests.
It's your analogy, and you are attempting to use it as an argument against the doctrine of eternal punishment,
I was using it to show that foreknowledge makes my actions unjust in the end.
That's not what I was saying. I was saying God knew you were going to respond to my post.
Which does not mean I do not have the option to not respond to your post.
No... that's the beauty of my analogy. I'm not saying he's controlling the cards... I'm saying that due to his knowledge, he knows which are coming next.
You just changed your analogy. You said the guy is controlling the game. Either he's controlling it, or he's not. He cannot do both.
No, predestination is a consequence of God having total foreknowledge.
Then your above analogy does not work because God indeed does control the cards, you just contradicted yourself.
The irony of this is just awesome.
What irony? I'm not using any one translation to make my arguments, I'm using a translation that's more accurate to the original and using information from the Greek to back what the translation has to say.
1Ki 11:9-10 Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not observe what the LORD had commanded. Num 22:22 But God was angry because he was going, and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as an adversary against him. Now he was riding on his donkey and his two servants were with him.
Neither of those verses dictate that God is sending anyone to hell. For that matter, you assume that God sends people to hell rather than them choosing it themselves by their actions. Your verses futhermore do not show what 1 Corinthians 13 condemns, it shows that God Himself was angry. 1 Corinthians 13 talks about those who MAKE people angry, or those who hate people. Check your Greek.
That's because these actions are SELF-EVIDENTLY not loving.
Love:
a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
Equivocation, you are using two different definitions of one word in a single argument.
Parents don't burn their children for a long period of time. For any period of time for that matter. When you love someone, you care only for their best interests.
According to whose definition of love? Which definition are you using now, yours or God's?
I was using it to show that foreknowledge makes my actions unjust in the end.
I figured this was also self-evident.
Your analogy:
"Now assume you knew he wasn't going to follow your directions, and go down a wrong path. Would you wait at the end of the wrong path, knowing he was going to take it... so that you could blow his head off with a shotgun?"
Does not show that foreknowledge makes your actions unjust, as it does not properly represent what God does. So, again, show that your analogy is accurate.
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
Well God did everything He could. He gave His one and only Son, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world. The good Lord does not want anyone to roast in the lake of fire. But really, in Hebrews, it states, "Then I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world." Of course everyone has misconceptions about how God is like, but the scripture says, "The Son (the God-man Jesus Christ) is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word." He didn't create your soul for hell (the Father created the universe through Jesus Christ His Son). Did not 2000 years ago God demonstrated His love for us and Christ died for us? But He is not dead, He is risen, and His Holy Spirit works all our life to bring us to a point when we can accept Him as our Savior. It's His job to convict, our job is to respond. Heaven or hell--the choice is yours.
Which does not mean I do not have the option to not respond to your post.
Whether you have the option to or not is a moot point.
God knows what you're going to do.
You just changed your analogy. You said the guy is controlling the game. Either he's controlling it, or he's not. He cannot do both.
I said he was controlling the flow of the game to the other players, based on the information he knows that others don't.
If he skips over a card to make someone else bust... he knew the other person was going to bust... but they didn't.
Then your above analogy does not work because God indeed does control the cards, you just contradicted yourself.
Beauty then... if he controls the cards, then he is the one deciding outcomes and sending people to hell.
What irony? I'm not using any one translation to make my arguments, I'm using a translation that's more accurate to the original and using information from the Greek to back what the translation has to say.
If you used the original Greek and Hebrew translations we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Equivocation, you are using two different definitions of one word in a single argument.
Neither of these definitions of love conflict with each other.
According to whose definition of love? Which definition are you using now, yours or God's?
Both. They're not contradictory.
Your analogy:
"Now assume you knew he wasn't going to follow your directions, and go down a wrong path. Would you wait at the end of the wrong path, knowing he was going to take it... so that you could blow his head off with a shotgun?"
Does not show that foreknowledge makes your actions unjust, as it does not properly represent what God does. So, again, show that your analogy is accurate.
This is exactly what God does if hell exists.
God knows what you're going to do before you do it, even if you have the option to make the other choice... it doesn't matter... because the choice you're going to choose... God knows you're going to choose it.
Though God knows that you're going to go down the wrong path and not "accept" his forgiveness (which is also a silly concept,) from birth, still he judges you on your actions and then sends you to eternal punishment, because he gave you the illusion of free choice.
If you had made the other choice, and chosen to go down the right path, God would have known that as well.
That is why free-will is an illusion, predestination is merited, and if hell exists God is not benevolent, all-loving or worthy of worship.
I haven't seen you make a valid point once this thread so let's start.
What are your versions of love and forgiveness?
Prove to me hell is real, without using any passages that have the words tartaroo, basanizo, Gehenna or sheol.
Well God did everything He could. He gave His one and only Son, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world. The good Lord does not want anyone to roast in the lake of fire. But really, in Hebrews, it states, "Then I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world." Of course everyone has misconceptions about how God is like, but the scripture says, "The Son (the God-man Jesus Christ) is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word." He didn't create your soul for hell (the Father created the universe through Jesus Christ His Son). Did not 2000 years ago God demonstrated His love for us and Christ died for us? But He is not dead, He is risen, and His Holy Spirit works all our life to bring us to a point when we can accept Him as our Savior. It's His job to convict, our job is to respond. Heaven or hell--the choice is yours.
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV)
"At the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10:11)
"Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL MEN." (Rom. 5:18)
"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek, helkuo) ALL MANKIND unto Myself." (John 12:32)
"ALL shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them." (Heb. 8:11)
"When God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the WORLD will learn righteousness." (Isaiah 26:9)
God's Spirit "will be poured out on ALL FLESH." (Joel 2:28)
"The Lord will NOT cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His
mercies." (Lam. 3:31, 32)
"God will have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:4, KJV)
To me it seems plainly written all over the Bible that Jesus is the saviour of the World, and that his miraculous death and resurrection paid the penalty for sin. Why man must accept that he did such a thing is beyond me. God is more powerful than that.
__________________ Come... let us Reason Together
Last edited by SimplyNothing; 20th October 2009 at 06:54 PM.
God knows what you're going to do before you do it, even if you have the option to make the other choice... it doesn't matter... because the choice you're going to choose... God knows you're going to choose it.
Though God knows that you're going to go down the wrong path and not "accept" his forgiveness (which is also a silly concept,) from birth, still he judges you on your actions and then sends you to eternal punishment, because he gave you the illusion of free choice.
If you had made the other choice, and chosen to go down the right path, God would have known that as well.
It is not an illusion, you have not demonstrated this assumption to be true.
That is why free-will is an illusion, predestination is merited, and if hell exists God is not benevolent, all-loving or worthy of worship.
This claim is based on assumptions that you have not backed.
I haven't seen you make a valid point once this thread so let's start.
What are your versions of love and forgiveness?
Prove to me hell is real, without using any passages that have the words tartaroo, basanizo, Gehenna or sheol.
Who gets to decide what points are valid and not valid, true and not true? Special pleading. My version of love and forgiveness is that which is biblical. Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
It is not an illusion, you have not demonstrated this assumption to be true.
You have not demonstrated how free will is true. The greatest Jewish and Christian philosophers agree that God's omniscience and free will are two concepts that cannot coincide. It is a paradox beyond our understanding. You are telling me the two can work... I'd like to see how.
You have not demonstrated how free will is true. The greatest Jewish and Christian philosophers agree that God's omniscience and free will are two concepts that cannot coincide. It is a paradox beyond our understanding. You are telling me the two can work... I'd like to see how.
Go.
First things first: you claimed free will is an illusion. You back that claim, and I'll be more than happy to explain my take on your conundrum.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
"This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV)
"At the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10:11)
"Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of ALL MEN, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL MEN." (Rom. 5:18)
"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in the Greek, helkuo) ALL MANKIND unto Myself." (John 12:32)
"ALL shall know the Lord, from the least of them to the greatest of them." (Heb. 8:11)
"When God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the WORLD will learn righteousness." (Isaiah 26:9)
God's Spirit "will be poured out on ALL FLESH." (Joel 2:28)
"The Lord will NOT cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His
mercies." (Lam. 3:31, 32)
"God will have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:4, KJV)
To me it seems plainly written all over the Bible that Jesus is the saviour of the World, and that his miraculous death and resurrection paid the penalty for sin. Why man must accept that he did such a thing is beyond me. God is more powerful than that.
So do you ignore the judgement? Do you ignore where Jesus Christ described the sheep and goat judgement in Matthew 25? Where he will tell some "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Hell is one of the best examples of free will. God so respects our freedom to choose that He has given those who do not choose Him a place to be where He is not. Hell. Before any other imagery of fire and brimstone, Hell is eternal separation from God. Any thought of torment and pain pales in comparison to being without the presence of the Creator. Those who do not choose God, have chosen to be without Him in Hell.
With respect to scripture stating that all shall know the Lord. Absolutely. We will all stand in judgment. How can you ignore God any longer when you have died and stand before Him in judgment?
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