I've been trying to address your points. I don't think you have any left. Hell is a concept from pagan religions.
Then why is it in the Bible?
Hell arose as a concept from the Roman theological schools after Christianity was legalized in Rome in 313 AD. This school of thought was heavily influenced by polytheistic paganism.
None of this addresses Matthew 25. Or anything in Revelation, for that matter.
Why do you find it so much easier to believe that God wants to burn people in hellfire than to believe that every human being can freely bask in the glory and love of God through the wonderful redemptive work of Jesus Christ? Please read the bible again.
Cut the arrogant arguments, they don't win you any credibility. I've read my Bible quite enough to know you're taking Jesus' work out of context. Just because He enabled people to be forgiven doesn't mean they've accepted it. Address my points. How is eternal punishment unloving as you claim?
There's a reason I gave you the link to look at. I also gave you an excellent book to read that adequately addresses the hell heresy.
What heresy? The only heresy here is you denying what the Bible has to say.
Lol. Why would I post a link if not to address your points.
Read the link.
Your link didn't address the points I asked you. They avoid them. Address the points I made, or concede them.
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
Cut the arrogant arguments, they don't win you any credibility. I've read my Bible quite enough to know you're taking Jesus' work out of context. Just because He enabled people to be forgiven doesn't mean they've accepted it
When you forgive somebody... they don't have to accept the fact that you've forgive them. You have just forgiven them. Your version's of forgiveness and love frighten me.
You have no idea what love is if you can in any way reconcile it with everlasting torment of any kind. We could look at the definition of love, the essence of love, we could observe love empirically, and it would in no way cause any human to torment the person they loved for as long as they possibly could.
The entire bible talks about God looking to redeem and restore everybody. The bible says that God has redeemed ALL THINGS unto himself. How can all things be redeemed to himself, or how can God have the ultimate victory if 86 percent of his creation is being tormented eternally.
What heresy? The only heresy here is you denying what the Bible has to say.
Hell is in the bible because of a bunch of PROVEN mistranslations. That is all.
When John and James wanted to call fire down on the Samaritans' heads because they did not believe Jesus was the Son of God, who did Jesus condemn, His disciples or the Samaritans for not believing the gospel directly from the apostles' own mouth?
"But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." And they went on to another village." (Luke 9:55, 56)
When you forgive somebody... they don't have to accept the fact that you've forgive them. You have just forgiven them. Your version's of forgiveness and love frighten me.
Yeah, and I don't even know what yours are and whether or not they line up with the Bible, so that means you haven't addressed my point about love yet.
You have no idea what love is if you can in any way reconcile it with everlasting torment of any kind. We could look at the definition of love, the essence of love, we could observe love empirically, and it would in no way cause any human to torment the person they loved for as long as they possibly could.
Then by all means, bring up the definition, as I asked you to do in my original post to you.
[quote]The entire bible talks about God looking to redeem and restore everybody.[/quoite] The ABILITY, not the action.
The bible says that God has redeemed ALL THINGS unto himself. How can all things be redeemed to himself, or how can God have the ultimate victory if 86 percent of his creation is being tormented eternally.
First off, where is this in the Bible, second, where do you get off with 86%?
Hell is in the bible because of a bunch of PROVEN mistranslations. That is all.
This does not address my point. It is simply another empty claim. Do you have substance or not?
When John and James wanted to call fire down on the Samaritans' heads because they did not believe Jesus was the Son of God, who did Jesus condemn, His disciples or the Samaritans for not believing the gospel directly from the apostles' own mouth?
Hell is not destruction, red herring.
"But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." And they went on to another village." (Luke 9:55, 56)
Dear friend please think.
I've done enough thinking over the years to reject your doctrine because it fails to take verses in context. Now, address my points and stop dodging around.
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
Dear Jazmin. God gave us free will, in all we do. God is also Omniscient, He knows all and He sees all. When God chooses some men, i.e. Esau, the brother of Jacob, Pharaoh, and others, we may be sure that God knows how they will live, God can see our past, as well as our future, God will know ,will know what they choose, and God will use them for His Plan to show His Greatness and Power. God often uses us to further His Plan to save Mankind, BUT only those of us, whom God knows to have developped the right character and attitude, to do so.. God does not force or coerce us, God uses us, as we are. I say this humbly and with love, Jazmin. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
God gave us free will, we decied where we will spend eternity by either accepting or rejecting him as savior. Why do you think that he gave us rules to follow if there was no punishment for disobaying them. God does know where everyone is going the choices they make. He is Omniscient, but that does not mean that he does not love everyone. Just because you give a man directions to a fine place but he does not follow your instructions and ends up getting killed, does not make you the bad guy here but the one who makes the wrong decision not to follow your directions. Same with God he gives us free will, it is our choice to follow or not.
God gave us free will, we decied where we will spend eternity by either accepting or rejecting him as savior.
If God is omniscient he knows which we're going to choose right?
is Omniscient, but that does not mean that he does not love everyone
Anyone that burns in hell is not loved... or at least... God does a pretty poor job of showing it.
Just because you give a man directions to a fine place but he does not follow your instructions and ends up getting killed, does not make you the bad guy here but the one who makes the wrong decision not to follow your directions.
Now assume you knew he wasn't going to follow your directions, and go down a wrong path. Would you wait at the end of the wrong path, knowing he was going to take it... so that you could blow his head off with a shotgun?
Same with God he gives us free will, it is our choice to follow or not.
This is contradictory if God knows the choices we make before we make them.
If God is omniscient he knows which we're going to choose right?
However, this does not take away our option of doing otherwise.
Anyone that burns in hell is not loved... or at least... God does a pretty poor job of showing it.
And that's an unfounded assumption.
Now assume you knew he wasn't going to follow your directions, and go down a wrong path. Would you wait at the end of the wrong path, knowing he was going to take it... so that you could blow his head off with a shotgun?
Show that this in any way relates to what God does.
This is contradictory if God knows the choices we make before we make them.
Then show it to be contradictory. Back your claims.
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
However, this does not take away our option of doing otherwise.
No... what it does is make that other option illusory. God knows which option of the two you are going to choose. If he knows, then it was pre-determined and the other option is a facade.
It's like a game of blackjack. If you're playing with someone who is amazing at card-counting, and they have both the true count, and the running count in their head perfectly. They look at the deck and they know a ten of spades is going to drop on their jack. Nobody else knows this when they play... except for him. So we have the illusion that it is a game of chance outcomes when really... we're being taken for a ride by the guy who's been counting and controlling the flow of the game.
Now in regards to theology, you could potentially take that other option, but if you were going to, GOD WOULD KNOW, leaving us in the same position as before.
And that's an unfounded assumption.
1 Corinthians 13 Defines love for us. In light of this definition, God is not loving.
"...Love is not easily angered, love keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices in truth. Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perserveres, love never fails."
God sending people to hell for eternity, is him keeping records of wrongs, and being angry.
God is love... thus both these actions are contrary to God's very nature.
Show that this in any way relates to what God does.
No... what it does is make that other option illusory. God knows which option of the two you are going to choose. If he knows, then it was pre-determined and the other option is a facade.
It was not determined by God, making the option not God's choice, but yours. Just because I chose to respond to your post does not mean I am forced to.
It's like a game of blackjack. If you're playing with someone who is amazing at card-counting, and they have both the true count, and the running count in their head perfectly. They look at the deck and they know a ten of spades is going to drop on their jack. Nobody else knows this when they play... except for him. So we have the illusion that it is a game of chance outcomes when really... we're being taken for a ride by the guy who's been counting and controlling the flow of the game.
You assume that God is controlling the game and decides who gets what card. This is an inaccurate assumption.
Now in regards to theology, you could potentially take that other option, but if you were going to, GOD WOULD KNOW, leaving us in the same position as before.
The only position it leaves us in is the position of God having foreknowledge, and that is not predestination.
1 Corinthians 13 Defines love for us. In light of this definition, God is not loving.
"...Love is not easily angered, love keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices in truth. Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perserveres, love never fails."
I suggest you stop using the NIV to make your arguments for you, as the Greek doesn't support the translation 'keeps no record of wrongs': 1Co 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 1Co 13:5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 1Co 13:6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Does not take into account: G3049 λογίζομαι logizomai Thayer Definition: 1) to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over 1a) to take into account, to make an account of 1a1) metaphorically to pass to one’s account, to impute 1a2) a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight 1b) to number among, reckon with 1c) to reckon or account 2) to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate 3) by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer 3a) to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on 3b) to suppose, deem, judge 3c) to determine, purpose, decide Part of Speech: verb a wrong suffered: G2556 κακός kakos Thayer Definition: 1) of a bad nature 1a) not such as it ought to be 2) of a mode of thinking, feeling, acting 2a) base, wrong, wicked 3) troublesome, injurious, pernicious, destructive, baneful Part of Speech: adjective A better translation might be 'does not impute a wrong onto someone else'.
God sending people to hell for eternity, is him keeping records of wrongs, and being angry.
It's not being angry, you have no evidence of that. In fact, by saying that, you are doing exactly what you claim God is doing: imputing a wrong.
God is love... thus both these actions are contrary to God's very nature.
You have not shown how the actions are not loving. In attempting to do so, you yourself did something unloving. Therefore, your claim is empty of substance.
I don't have to.
It's your analogy, and you are attempting to use it as an argument against the doctrine of eternal punishment, so if you expect your analogy to work, you do have to. But it's your credibility, your claims at stake, not mine.
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Don't mess with Yoda!
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done.""
-C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (emphasis mine)
"You must be imaginative, strong-hearted. You must try things that may not work, and you must not let anyone define your limits because of where you come from. Your only limit is your soul."
-Chef at the beginning of Ratatouille
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