| Christian Apologetics A forum to discuss the systematic defense of the Christian belief system with other Christians. |
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4th November 2009, 09:00 PM
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Reps: 416,617,700,174,524,864 (power: 416,617,700,174,543) | | Originally Posted by chaela  
Do you have scripture to back this up?
Sure. Is God Holy?
“Basic theology” according to whom? Christianity, since its existence.
__________________ Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah
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dir="ltr"> "Offense" is something TAKEN. No one MAKES anyone feel anything. IF we are offended by something, we CHOSE to be offended by it...
But I think that OFTEN, people confuse discussion with fighting. Disagreeing is not personal, it is not an attack, it is not disrespectful or flaming, it is not offensive per se. It ONLY means, "I disagree." Nothing more. Nothing less. It suggests NO emotional response whatsoever.
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4th November 2009, 11:47 PM
| | Regular Member
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Reps: 597,414,757,398 (power: 0) | | | First, super animator, capitalize the name you use to reference your Creator, you know, show Him some respect, maybe God won't allow you to go to hell, see my point?
"With God, all things shall be possible." He can allow or not allow, anything.
Jesus Christ died so that people don't have to go to hell, we can choose to live forever with Him. Isn't that peachy? |
5th November 2009, 12:20 AM
|  | Disciple
 
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Reps: 202,815,977,224 (power: 202,815,980) | | | This last bit of conversation, (one liners surely aren't debate) has been unproductive. The idea that some are attempting to advance that either there is no hell, or that all are going to heaven does not match scripture. The idea that God died on a cross for no reason is illogical. Additionally, it is highly unjust. My God is holy, perfect, just, and moral. Those qualities do not allow the unwilling salvation of souls. God gave us the ability to choose Him. He gave us the free will to choose for ourself, which we squandered in the garden of eden. That is a prime example of evil. I think of evil not as some force or created thing, but doing anything that is contrary to the will of God. Evil is not sentient. Evil is disobedience. Given the disobedience of man how could anyone assume God, who is perfect, holy, and just, would allow sinners in heaven without atonement? He gives us salvation if we accept and surrender to Christ. To think that He would force someone to heaven against their will is unjust. This is not from God. I'm done with this conversation and appreciate the civility of all involved. It's been interesting to see how varied, different, and wrong we can all be.
Joshua 24:15 says it wonderfully:
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."  |
5th November 2009, 10:09 AM
|  | rescued by Shyamasundara
 
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Reps: 558,707,763,218,111,424 (power: 558,707,763,218,119) | | Originally Posted by Godschild87 Sure. Is God Holy? I realize that God is holy - no doubt about that. What I was asking you, though, was to provide Scripture which specifically says that "God cannot tolerate evil in His presence, so either evil is something that doesn't exist, or there are places that God does not dwell."
Christianity, since its existence. As I'm sure you are aware, Christianity is fragmented into hundreds of different denominations. "Basic theology", therefore, has been lost in the shuffle, and what is considered as such varies depending on which corner of Christianity one talks to.
It might help if you shared which particular persuasion of Christianity influences your idea of Basic Theology.
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5th November 2009, 10:10 AM
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Reps: 558,707,763,218,111,424 (power: 558,707,763,218,119) | | Originally Posted by NickH This last bit of conversation, (one liners surely aren't debate) has been unproductive. The idea that some are attempting to advance that either there is no hell, or that all are going to heaven does not match scripture. It matches Scripture for those of us who believe it does. It doesn't match Scripture for those of us who don't. That's how Christianity overall seems to operate, have you noticed? It's almost as if Scripture reflects back to us our own hearts on any given issue. Scary prospect, that!
The idea that God died on a cross for no reason is illogical. Yes it is. So why are you insisting that He did so "for no reason"?
Additionally, it is highly unjust. My God is holy, perfect, just, and moral. Those qualities do not allow the unwilling salvation of souls. It allowed for the unwilling existence of souls, why would it not allow for the unwilling salvation of souls? He didn't ask us permission to give us physical birth, why would He ask us permission to give us spiritual re-birth?
God gave us the ability to choose Him. No, He didn't. Scripture says that no one seeks God (see Romans). If no one even gets to the point of seeking God, how could they get to the point of choosing God?
He gave us the free will to choose for ourself No, He did not. Our wills are not so free as to overstep Divinely set parameters.
Given the disobedience of man how could anyone assume God, who is perfect, holy, and just, would allow sinners in heaven without atonement? What do you mean by "without atonement"? The crucifixion did happen, right?
He gives us salvation if we accept and surrender to Christ. Where does scripture say we must "accept Christ"?
If what we do is what activates our salvation, Christ wouldn't have had to die for us.
To think that He would force someone to heaven against their will is unjust. Yet we are supposed to believe that He will force most of mankind into eternal torment or annihilation against their will is Justice at it's finest. Sorry, but that seems a bit twisted. A happy ending for all is unjust? Christ being 100% successful in His clearly stated mission is unjust?
This is not from what you believe is God.
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5th November 2009, 10:59 AM
|  | elman
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Reps: 31,654,610,401,511,400 (power: 31,654,610,401,542) | | Originally Posted by Yab Yum Acts 4:27-28
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Isaiah 53:10
But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
Godschild isn't crucifying God's Son the ultimate sin?
Failure to love others is the ultimate sin.
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I believe in a loving Creator who created us for the purpose of being capable of receiving and responding to the love of the Creator. Our first gift of life is temporary. If we attempt to fulfill our purpose of loving others, we have the hope of receiving a second gift of eternal life. There is no pain in the after life. If we do not receive the second gift, we are simply left with the first gift and will not exist after we die. |
5th November 2009, 11:33 AM
|  | Whoever says, ‘You fool’?
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Reps: 308,822,204,731,144,320 (power: 308,822,204,731,149) | | Originally Posted by elman Failure to love others is the ultimate sin.
Same thing. And who gives permission for such sins to occur, and why? God gives his permission (unless you believe he is not omnipotent) and he does so to display the fullness of glory of his Son.
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Christ didn't die for peace in heaven - He died for peace on earth.
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5th November 2009, 11:36 AM
| | elman
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Reps: 31,654,610,401,511,400 (power: 31,654,610,401,542) | | Originally Posted by Yab Yum Same thing. And who gives permission for such sins to occur, and why? God gives his permission (unless you believe he is not omnipotent) and he does so to display the fullness of glory of his Son.
God gave us the ability to chose to love. This required that we have the ability to not love. When we do not love it is not the will of God. He allows it, so we can become loving beings and so we can love in response to His love. but it is not His will and we do not sin with His blessing or permission.
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I believe in a loving Creator who created us for the purpose of being capable of receiving and responding to the love of the Creator. Our first gift of life is temporary. If we attempt to fulfill our purpose of loving others, we have the hope of receiving a second gift of eternal life. There is no pain in the after life. If we do not receive the second gift, we are simply left with the first gift and will not exist after we die. |
5th November 2009, 11:41 AM
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Reps: 558,707,763,218,111,424 (power: 558,707,763,218,119) | | Originally Posted by elman God gave us the ability to chose to love. This required that we have the ability to not love. When we do not love it is not the will of God. He allows it, so we can become loving beings and so we can love in response to His love. but it is not His will and we do not sin with His blessing or permission. Actually, a distinguishing mark of an Omnipotent Deity is that nothing happens unless He causes it to happen, either through commission or omission. If it's happening or not happening - whatever it is - is so because of a deliberate action or nonaction on His part. Our wills are not greater than His. If He truly didn't want something to take place, He would have ensured that it didn't.
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5th November 2009, 11:47 AM
| | elman
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Reps: 31,654,610,401,511,400 (power: 31,654,610,401,542) | | It allowed for the unwilling existence of souls, why would it not allow for the unwilling salvation of souls? He didn't ask us permission to give us physical birth, why would He ask us permission to give us spiritual re-birth?
God also allowed for the willing non existence of souls. Ezekeil 18. The wicked soul shall die, the righteous soul will live. If the wicked soul turns to righteousness it will live and not die. It is not about permission. It is about a gift of spiritual life. No, He didn't. Scripture says that no one seeks God (see Romans). If no one even gets to the point of seeking God, how could they get to the point of choosing God?
Jesus said seek and you shall find. Paul said we were created to seek God. Have you never sought God? Why do you take this scripture literally and ignore the others? No, He did not. Our wills are not so free as to overstep Divinely set parameters.
We are allowed to sin--be unloving to others. That is not the will of God. Where does scripture say we must "accept Christ"?
If what we do is what activates our salvation, Christ wouldn't have had to die for us.
We are commanded to love. We can try to obey that command but we will never achieve perfection and completeness as God loves us. We cannot earn our salvation--eternal life. It is a free gift, however if we do not love others we have no hope of receiving such a gift. Yet we are supposed to believe that He will force most of mankind into eternal torment or annihilation against their will is Justice at it's finest. Sorry, but that seems a bit twisted. A happy ending for all is unjust? Christ being 100% successful in His clearly stated mission is unjust?
God does not torture anyone nor does God kill anyone or need to kill anyone. God gifts us with spiritual and physcial life. The physical life is temporaty and we all die. The spiritual life is subject to our loving others and when we do not we destroy ourselves spiritually. The recreation of our spiritual life is a gift from God, but those who do not turn from wickedness to loving others have no hope of receiving that gift. They are left with physical life that expires and when it does they are left with nothing. God has not forced anything on them.
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I believe in a loving Creator who created us for the purpose of being capable of receiving and responding to the love of the Creator. Our first gift of life is temporary. If we attempt to fulfill our purpose of loving others, we have the hope of receiving a second gift of eternal life. There is no pain in the after life. If we do not receive the second gift, we are simply left with the first gift and will not exist after we die. | | |
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