| Creation & Evolution Forum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too. |  | | 
18th October 2009, 11:43 AM
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Reps: 193,626,028,018,630,112 (power: 193,626,028,018,645) | | Originally Posted by TerranceL May I use the above in my signature?
Be my guest. | 
18th October 2009, 01:44 PM
|  | Sarcasm is kind of an art isn't it?

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Reps: 113,334,091,635,218,480 (power: 113,334,091,635,226) | | Originally Posted by Tinker Grey Be my guest.
Much thanks.
__________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. THE NEW BOSS: JUST LIKE THE OLD BOSS. Paraphrased from a song written by the great Pete Townsend To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. dir="ltr"> they told me if I voted for John McCain that I would get a President like Bush that would violate the airspace and sovereignty of an allied nation with a military force to assassinate a foreign national of another allied country and then their dead body would be dumped in the ocean. and they were right.
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18th October 2009, 03:11 PM
|  | Senior Member 34  | | Join Date: 29th February 2004 Location: In my pants
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Reps: 38,672,220,164,744,672 (power: 38,672,220,164,753) | | Originally Posted by SimplyNothing Is it ignorant of me to say that I have no idea if we were 'YECed' onto the planet, or if we arose from evolution, because neither side can justify their point of view beyond reasonable doubt?
Evolution has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt, which is why practically all biologists in the world accept it. If you're interested in some of this evidence, this place is fairly easy to understand: Lines of evidence: The science of evolution Originally Posted by SimplyNothing I've thought about evolution for a long time... I've also thought about creation for a long time. After a few years I have decided, I don't know... I never will know, and in the end I also don't care. I'm here now... and none of us truly know and yet a lot of us care way too much.
So I was called ignorant by a YEC buddy of mine for deciding not to make a decision.
So a few things. Can anyone prove either YEC or evolution to me beyond reasonable doubt? And is it ignorant to not choose a side when I don't know, and really in the end... can never know?
Yes, you are ignorant, but that's ok. To be ignorant and aware of it is infinitely better than being ignorant and unaware of it (as I suspect your friend is a perfect example of). We're all ignorant about countless topics, because we can't possibly care enough about them all to study them in depth. The world is filled with heated debates where the two sides are convinced that the topic at hand is of ultimate importance. If you don't personally find this topic fascinating, just forget about the stigma connected with ignorance and be proud to say "I don't know, I don't care enough about it to dedicate alot of time on it and I'll remain an agnostic concerning this question".
While you somewhat seem to do that already, you must also be careful not to confuse the stands "I don't know" with "I can never know"/"It's impossible to know". The first one is a humble and perfectly acceptable stance, while the latter is an illogical and arrogant stance, where you basically claim knowledge based on your current lack of knowledge.
Peter | 
18th October 2009, 03:39 PM
|  | Senior Veteran
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Reps: 75,142,064,124,300,000 (power: 75,142,064,124,315) | | Originally Posted by laconicstudent All of the observations and evidence support the Theory of Evolution. The only reason it is still theory is only because we haven't directly observed it.
Evolution is a fact. It has indeed been directly observed. The "Theory of Evolution" is the explanation of the fact of evolution.
Anyone who really wants to can examine the evidence for evolution by reading books and going to museums.
__________________ "A belief which leaves no place for doubt is not a belief; it is a superstition." - Jose Bergamin
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18th October 2009, 03:44 PM
|  | Advocate
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Reps: 9,803,334,807,997 (power: 9,803,334,814) | | True, but evolutionary theory has strong evidence, while YEC has none.
Technically, we can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Earth isn't secretly ruled by a cabal of invisible pink unicorns, either.
This is true. I find that deliciously ironic.
Oh buddy so did I. Ask yourself this: How much Bible/basic doctrine do I have to give up, if I embrace evolution?
The doctrine of six day creation?
Potentially the doctrine of original sin. Evolutionary theory makes accurate predictions. Hard to see how it could be completely wrong if it makes good predictions.
A smart person can make good predictions off of flawed information.
See the process of evolution itself is arbitrary... when it comes to making a prediction of some sort. We've never seen evolution. We never will see evolution. We have bones in the ground, and fossils and we say "this organism must be this organisms ancestor," or "it looks like this organism may have migrated from here."
To me... maybe I'm wrong... but to me it seems that evolution's falsification would have little bearing on any field except for paleontology in the end. If in some way, Evolutionary Theory was completely disproven, a vast amount of our observations and our knowledge of paleontology, genetics and biology in general would simply make no sense.
Perhaps in paleontology... but some of our discoveries and knowledge regarding genetics and biology was made by a priest. There are Christian's that work in the fields of biology and genetics. So I'm not entirely sure how and unobserved process not being real is going to alter information that we can observe (such as genes, DNA, biosemiotics, etc.)
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18th October 2009, 04:02 PM
|  | Advocate
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Reps: 9,803,334,807,997 (power: 9,803,334,814) | | I'll do that.
First: The Hominid Transition fossils. Fairly obvious and well known. You can find those with a Google search.
A few of these Hominid transitional fossils ended up being stained chimpanzee bones... so I like to take new paleontological discoveries with a grain of salt.
I believe this was explained in the book "The World Without Us," though I can't cite the page.
Secondly... our assumption is that this is a hominid transitional fossil, but could we concede that these bones may potentially be from some other organism? Whales and dolphins have vestigial leg bones (Nemoto, T. (1963) "New records of sperm whales with protruded rudimentary hind limbs." Sci. Rep. Whales Res. Inst. No. 17)
Yeah see now that's cool. Some human infants are born with an atavistic tail (Dubrow, T. J., Wackym, P. A., and Lesavoy, M. A. (1988) "Detailing the human tail." Annals of Plastic Surgery 20:340-344. [PubMed])
Typically, the tail is present in utero, but disappears before birth. However, this is not always the case. Sometimes an infant will be born with a tail. Usually they are completely superficial. But sometimes, it will completely functional, containing vertebrae and cartilage.
This I knew... whether it's proof of evolution or genetic malfunction is tenuous. How come they're never hung up in museums?
Same reason two inch human tails aren't. That would be interesting.... If I was museum curator, I'd certainly try and put some atavistic skeletons on display.
Yeah that'd definitely be a solid idea. Make the theory seem less John Boge to a few folks. ....And no one saw God create ex nihilo either. Unfortunately, evolutionary theory is the theory with all the extant evidence, ID has none, and Creationism has been torn to shreds by radiometric dating, astrophysics and geology while also having no evidence.
This is true. However, if one believes in God, then ID isn't false. Whether or not we arose from evolution, YEC or OEC, if you believe in God, we were designed. and some are willing to believe evolution because they don't want a god involved.
Read into its early history and you'll find this statement astoundingly accurate. You are missing the point. We can observe fossils, we can date them with radiometric techniques, we can sequence our genomes, see all the similarities in not only genes, but the pseudo-genes in between, we can observe evolution taking place in a bacteria culture, we can see the atavisms: The external limbs on cetacea, the tails in humans.
How many of these atavisms would benefit the organism? How many of these organisms would survive and thrive? Genetic mutation is quite, quite rarely beneficial, and sometimes it's arbitrary.
I guess over billions of years maybe... but... I dunno man. Lol All of the observations and evidence support the Theory of Evolution. The only reason it is still theory is only because we haven't directly observed it. It is a theory in about the same way gravity and atomics are.
Gravity can be observed. It's whether our knowledge of its invisible workings is correct or not. "All observations support evolution" This is also coming from people who support evolution.......Biased truth is not truth at all.
Perhaps you could show me some counter observations then?
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18th October 2009, 04:03 PM
|  | Senior Veteran
 | | Join Date: 21st December 2002 Location: California
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Reps: 75,142,064,124,300,000 (power: 75,142,064,124,315) | | Originally Posted by SimplyNothing A smart person can make good predictions off of flawed information.
But it is eaisier to make good predictions when you provide yourself with correct information. We've never seen evolution. We never will see evolution.
You, and the mouse in your pocket, may never have seen evolution. It has, however, been observed in the laboratory, and in nature. We have bones in the ground, and fossils and we say "this organism must be this organisms ancestor," or "it looks like this organism may have migrated from here."
To me... maybe I'm wrong... but to me it seems that evolution's falsification would have little bearing on any field except for paleontology in the end.
You are wrong. Perhaps in paleontology... but some of our discoveries and knowledge regarding genetics and biology was made by a priest.
Several priests have been involved in biological research. What is your point? There are Christian's that work in the fields of biology and genetics.
Yes, and almost all of them accept the validity of evolution. So I'm not entirely sure how and unobserved process not being real is going to alter information that we can observe (such as genes, DNA, biosemiotics, etc.)
Theories don't change the facts (information). Theories explain the facts.
I have to say that participating in these forums has driven home the point that half of all people are below average in intellegence.
__________________ "A belief which leaves no place for doubt is not a belief; it is a superstition." - Jose Bergamin
"You can't trust an honest man." --- Anonymous
"He does not believe who does not live according to his belief." -- Thomas Fuller
"The fact that the author thinks slowly is not serious, but the fact that he publishes faster than he thinks is inexcusable." -- Wolfgang Pauli
"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" -- Micah 6:8
"It is because we believe absurdities that we are able to commit atrocities." -- Voltaire "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." -- Wolfgang Pauli "Je ne suis pas marxiste." -- Karl Marx "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."-- Mark Twain
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein | 
18th October 2009, 04:08 PM
|  | Advocate
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Reps: 9,803,334,807,997 (power: 9,803,334,814) | | You simply were the issue. You actually tried to PUSH your point. I did not post for someone to answer whether one was better or the other was. I have my own mind, my own soul. I can make that choice just fine on my own. It angers me that someone of your age should even try to say as you said in this post as well that one has the most proof. Good god, if the truth was plainly evident we'd all follow it. We don't. get over yourself.
FTR, I totally thought you were debating on the side of creationism as well, so I can see where laconic's coming from.
Wait plus, you're in a debate forum man. I dunno what you're expecting. And you think like that because of who were born to and where you were born and for no other reason, you had creationist parents, so, you are a creationist, it's not your fault in fact it had nothing whatsoever to do with you, you had no say in the matter.
(We will now be told that his parents were in fact Atheists and he found his God all on his own without any prompting from anyone)
You have absolutely no right to make this statement, regardless of what he's said. Will you calm down? Your taking this way to personally. If you don't want anyone to respond to your posts, then do not post.
^
No it's not. O_o
Otherwise I'd accept it as factual.
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18th October 2009, 04:18 PM
|  | well that was awkward... 38 
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Reps: 1,425,232,465,392,338,944 (power: 1,425,232,465,392,368) | | MOD HAT ON Thread closed for cool down.
Folks, cut out the personal insults. This forum isn't for creationists to tear down evolutionists, nor is it for evolutionists to tear down creationists. MOD HAT OFF
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20th October 2009, 09:31 AM
|  | Pressing on and through... 52 
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Reps: 322,997,028,525,696,960 (power: 322,997,028,525,718) | | MOD HAT ON Thread is reopening. Please remember to refrain from insults, and, play nice 
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