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The work of the Spirit is quite important withint the Lutheran Church. Without knowing the full specificity of your church I could not tell you how it is different/similar, but I could say some things about it from our perspective and allow you to draw the comparisons yourself:
1) The Spirit grants faith. Faith is not a decision we make, it is a gift from God bestowed by the Holy Spirit. Our Catechism on the third article of the Creed is wonderfully written on this topic:
I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength come to believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to him; but the Holy Spirit has called my through the Gospel, enlightened me with his gifts, and sanctified and preserved me in the true faith. In the same way, he calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth, and preserves it in unity with Jesus Christ in the one true faith. In this Christian Church, he daily forgives abundantly all my sins, and the sins of all believers, and at the last day will raise me and all the dead, and will grant everlasting life to me and to all who believe in Christ. This is most certainly true."
Mentioned in there, but also important is sanctification. This also is not our work but the Spirit's.
Lutherans confess that all good works performed by the Christian are not in fact his/her own but rather are fruit of the Spirit. We are vessels through which the Spirit does the work for the neighbor's sake.
We are "liturgical", as said above, all churches typically follow some sort of liturgy, but yes Lutherans have traditionally followed a more formal liturgy. But this is not a bad thing, its roots are biblical and it is not pounded in stone as to how it must be. Lutherans affirm that the only essential part of the church services are Word and Sacrament. The gospel must be preached purely and entirely and the sacraments administered properly. Outside of that we have a beloved evangelical freedom in how we design our worship. We simply choose the traditional liturgy as we understand it as a good expression of our theology and nurturing to the faith. But within this we have tramendous flexability. This is not necessarily the case with other "high liturgy" denominations such as catholicism and anglicanism which possess much less liturgical freedom.
We also believe the spirit to be active in the liturgy, both the planning phase and the actual act of the liturgy. Churches that reject this style of service often do so as you noted because of the view that the service should be "spirit led", we believe we are spirit led, the Spirit guides us not just on Sunday morning, but through out our lives, and certainly we believe is as active within the planning of the service and preparation of the sermon as in the act itself.
We typically do not practice "speaking in tongues" as some more charismatic churches do. I would not say we deny it as a gift of the Spirit, but we do not believe it should be forced out or is a necessary part of the service. Genuine tongue speaking can happen, but Paul makes it clear that not everyone can or should speak in tongues.
We believe the Spirit is gifted in the promise of baptism. This is one of the reasons we baptize infants, because we believe the actor in baptism is God and not us.
I suppose that will do for now. If you have more questions please keep them coming. And welcome to TCL.
I'm changing the subject slightly, away from liturgy and onto 'law and gospel' - although I'll probably come back to it at a later stage.
When I listened to 'Fighting for the faith', I had never heard 'law and gospel' taught before. It really was a revelation to me, especially when examining my own church's sermons, held up to that light. I would say that most often, it neither includes law, nor gospel. Our Pastor has said up front that he does not preach the gospel because all other churches do that and they want to be different.
Pax said
"We believe the Spirit is gifted in the promise of baptism. This is one of the reasons we baptize infants, because we believe the actor in baptism is God and not us. "
That is extremely interesting. We are always taught that a person has to be old enough to choose God, otherwise it does not count. We have put the work on ourselves instead of God.
Jes' a second while I hunt down a chatechism here ...
Ok: as I read here, Lutherans baptize infants to be inclusive. The command was to make disciples of all nations ... not people of all nations over the age of 12 ( 14, whatever ). Additionally, infants need redemption as much as anyone else, and the sacrament of baptism offers that redemption.
I recently observed a baptism of a Greek Orthodox child. The Orthodox church claims the oldest continuous tradition of any Christian denomination - older even than the Roman Catholic church. The fact that they baptize infants indicates that the practice comes to us from the beginning of our faith.
As for preaching Law and Gospel - what could we possibly be offered that is more important than the word of God, offered for our correction and edification? The Law does more than convict: it shows us how we aught to live just to be good and decent people. The Gospel is desperately needed to assure us that ( while our deeds mean nothing for redemption ) the good that we do and our best efforts to avoid sin are acceptable, for our salvation is not at stake.
Periodically I listen in to Joel Osteen on the Christian Channels. He doesn't preach Law and Gospel - he's nothing other than a motivational speaker. As an unemployed pessimist dealing with real-world issues, there is nothing that an ivory-smiled speaker in an auditorium who never really had to work or struggle with uncertainty could say that applies to my little chunk of dirt.
I've been through "different". I can't speak to your experiences, but mine found "different" to be hollow, empty, and without substance. God speaks to us through His Word, and I don't object to hearing from Him regularly.
__________________ Any chance of salvation - someone died for me; washed in blood, he cared enough to pity me.
When I listened to 'Fighting for the faith', I had never heard 'law and gospel' taught before. It really was a revelation to me, especially when examining my own church's sermons, held up to that light. I would say that most often, it neither includes law, nor gospel.
Law & Gospel preaching was new to me too when I first started to learn about Lutheranism - and that's a little surprising since I grew up in a Baptist church, and they place a very high value on preaching. I wouldn't say that I never heard the law, or never heard the gospel, but not always consistently, side by side, and not always as the Law for our sanctification and the Gospel for our justification.
When the Gospel is presented as something we must consciously decide to believe in order for it to be effective, then it has become Law, not Gospel. "Having faith" has been turned into a work that we do to earn our salvation.
Lutherans believe that the the Word of the Gospel is a Means of Grace. A means of grace is a method through which God reaches out to us by physical means to deliver his saving faith to us. The Gospel is the message of grace. God saves us through his eternal, powerful, efficacious, creative Word. He declares us righteous through our faith in Christ which he himself gives us as a free gift by grace. Means of grace are ways God uses to deliver that supernatural Word to us in physical forms that we can apprehend in our physical state, which produces in us a spiritual change.
In the same way that speech mechanisms, sound waves, and hearing mechanisms are physical means by which God delivers his spoken Word, and in the same way that paper, ink, computer equipment, and our sight mechanisms are equally physical means by which God delivers his written Word, the sacraments are other physical means by which God has promised to deliver us his Word.
The sacraments - baptism and communion - are not merely the physical elements, but the Word of God and his promise combined with the physical element and received by faith. The physical elements are understood to be the visible means through which God's grace is delivered to us. That is why we sometimes refer to the sacraments as the Visible Gospel.
Originally Posted by mercyreigns
Our Pastor has said up front that he does not preach the gospel because all other churches do that and they want to be different.
Well, that is different all right. Different from 2,000 years of church history. Different from what we are commanded to do in scripture. I wonder if he has stopped to think if there is a reason that all the other churches preach the Gospel.
Originally Posted by mercyreigns
That is extremely interesting. We are always taught that a person has to be old enough to choose God, otherwise it does not count. We have put the work on ourselves instead of God.
Of course, all new aspects need to be examined in the light of the Scripture - taken in context. A lot of people come up with 'new things', without them being actually Biblical.
Are there any other questions you wish to ask?
__________________ Any chance of salvation - someone died for me; washed in blood, he cared enough to pity me.
Law & Gospel preaching was new to me too when I first started to learn about Lutheranism - and that's a little surprising since I grew up in a Baptist church, and they place a very high value on preaching. I wouldn't say that I never heard the law, or never heard the gospel, but not always consistently, side by side, and not always as the Law for our sanctification and the Gospel for our justification.
Not to quibble, too much. But Gospel is also for sanctification (God’s work in us). Note that there is a difference between the Lutheran and Reformed understanding of the 3rd use of the Law. What you have stated about sanctification comes close to the Reformed understanding.
Originally Posted by CantateDomino
Lutherans believe that the the Word of the Gospel is a Means of Grace. A means of grace is a method through which God reaches out to us by physical means to deliver his saving faith to us. The Gospel is the message of grace. God saves us through his eternal, powerful, efficacious, creative Word. He declares us righteous through our faith in Christ which he himself gives us as a free gift by grace. Means of grace are ways God uses to deliver that supernatural Word to us in physical forms that we can apprehend in our physical state, which produces in us a spiritual change.
Again, we have to be clear on language choice. Reformed teaching uses the phrase “outward symbol of an inward work of grace.” That phrase is not Lutheran teaching... just so we are all on the same page.
__________________ For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2
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We have left our church.
After discussing differences in, I suppose you could say theology, we have reached a point where our differences are irreconcilable.
I've been mourning the loss over the weekend, but now I have complete peace and look forward to finding the place God wants us to be.
If there were a Lutheran church I'd go to it, but there isn't one for hundreds of miles.
We have left our church.
After discussing differences in, I suppose you could say theology, we have reached a point where our differences are irreconcilable.
I've been mourning the loss over the weekend, but now I have complete peace and look forward to finding the place God wants us to be.
If there were a Lutheran church I'd go to it, but there isn't one for hundreds of miles.
Haven't ever listened but it might help fill in your gap They have sermon downloads/podcasts on a regular basis.
__________________ I know I am blunt. I apologize.
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1 Peter 5:8-9
Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.
But Gospel is also for sanctification (God’s work in us). Note that there is a difference between the Lutheran and Reformed understanding of the 3rd use of the Law. What you have stated about sanctification comes close to the Reformed understanding.
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