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  #21  
Old 16th October 2009, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Hentenza View Post
The bible teaches that sex outside of marriage is wrong, however, sex within marriage is a gift of God. Scripture never says what a husband and wife are or are not allowed to do sexually. Husbands and wives are instructed, “Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time (1 Cor. 7:5). Whatever is done, it should be mutually agreed upon. No one should be encouraged or coerced to do something that either is uncomfortable with or thinks is wrong.






To the question: No. My denomination has no official statement on what a married couple may or may not do in this regard. That's not to say that some individuals who are registered in congregations legally affiliated with the denomination may not have opinions about that (I suspect many do) but that's not the question of this thread.



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  #22  
Old 16th October 2009, 06:16 PM
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As a Protestant, I would often get the impression that sex is inherently dirty but made tolerable by getting married. People tried hard to "wait until marriage", even signing cards and buying Promise Rings. But as for sex in marriage, I guess I've never been married so they probably talk about it between married couples, not teenagers.

However, there was a lot of focus on the "first time" being "special" for your husband. Once you lost your virginity, the husband wouldn't feel as special by being able to take your virginity on the wedding night. My sister signed a "re-virginity card" a couple times but I refused, I thought the whole thing was ridiculous. I had openly left the faith, my sister said she tried to keep up appearances so our parents would trust her more and she'd be able to get away with more things.

For example, I had come out as bisexual and I was no longer allowed to spend the night at anybody's house, boy (of course) or girl. But my sister was in the closet to our parents (even though she was out at school) and spent the night at her girlfriend's house. I got upset at her being allowed to get away with stuff by keeping secrets so I outed her during an argument I had with my parents about my sexuality (which was common).

I just tell this story because this is kind of how many Evangelical teenagers approach the subject -- what can I get away with? how far is too far? what if he says he loves me and promises to marry me?

If I have kids, I'm not going to use the "special" word. Anyway, the first time isn't "special" and "magical", it's often extremely awkward, embarrassing, and disappointing. But even more importantly, the focus is on trying to save this "gift" of your virginity for your future husband. But then what is the point of sex after you get married? Is it just the physical pleasure and emotional intimacy?


The Catholic Church believes sex is more than that. Sex outside of marriage is a sin and a corruption of something that God created for good. Sex within a marriage is a sacramental, an extension of the sacrament of Holy Matrimony. Holy water is a sacramental, my blessed rosary is a sacramental, my crucifix is a sacramental. Sex is sacred and holy. It is a means of receiving Grace and connecting with God.

If marriage is a form of Christ and the Church, sex is like Holy Communion. Celibacy is a greater good because it is a more intense focus on Christ. People don't sacrifice things they don't want ; nobody gives up cooked spinach for Lent, but rather chocolate. Augustine connected sex with the transmission of Original Sin, perhaps he felt guilty about his previous promiscuity but the Catholic Church sees sex within marriage as pure and holy and good.


So, keeping that in mind, here are some things that the Catholic Church says about sex: All sexual activity outside of marriage is forbidden. Divorce is impossible. A couple may split up, but they're still technically married and so they each should be chaste separately. However, these days, it's pretty easy to get an anullment, declaring the marriage was never valid (if King Henry lived after Vatican II, I wonder if we'd have the Church of England...), canon lawyers will always find some excuse. If one person dies, remarriage is permitted ("till death do us part").

I remember being a teenager in an Evangelical church, some times they'd split the youth group up into boys and girls to talk about sex and dating. It was always a bunch of questions about "How far can I go? What counts as 'sex'? Can I be a 'technical virgin'?" Boys, and occasionally girls, ask about masturbation. They try figure out excuses like, "What if I'm not fantasizing about anyone in particular, I'm not being lustful, I'm just enjoying my body, right?" or "What if I'm fantasizing about my future husband?" (loophole, eh?) My friend believes it's okay because she usually just fantasizes about her husband, even while he's home (I think she's weird, why not just have sex?). Some pastors will fail to find error in this.

But masturbation is forbidden, not just because of the pornography/fantasy/lust issue, but because it doesn't do anything, it's just "cor curvum in se" -- the heart turned in on itself (to use Luther's phrase). Self-gratification is never good, especially with something as holy as sex. Sex is communal between a husband and wife. But masturbation is selfish. It's something that's very common these days among both men and women but that doesn't make it not a (mortal) sin.

So no sex of any kind, with anyone, including yourself, outside of marriage. This also means if you're married, no threesomes or swinging or whatever. This is pretty standard across denominations.

The Catholic Church also takes a strong stand against homosexuality (which is always sex outside of marriage anyway), abortion and birth control. Protestant churches also used to be almost universally against birth control but throughout the 20th century, they started to liberalize and it began to be seen as okay. Some remain opposed to certain forms like IUDs because they focus on preventing implantation (thus causing tiny abortions) although all hormonal birth control methods also increase that risk. But they don't usually talk about how unnatural and harmful hormonal birth control is or the lack of intimacy with a condom.

Even more recently, some liberal denominations have supported abortion. The generally conservative Free Methodist denomination I grew up in officially (Book of Discipline) condemns abortion generally but says it's okay if you talk it over wit h a "Christian counselor" or your pastor first.

So extra-marital sex, pornography, masturbation, homosexuality, birth control and abortion are in opposition to Divine and/or Natural Law. For example, premarital sex is a violation of Divine Law but not Natural Law; however, homosexual sex is a violation of both Divine and Natural Law.

Here we come to oral sex. Oral sex wasn't even really a question until the modern era. It existed but only in some cultures and among the greater Western culture, primarily among prostitutes (avoids pregnancy, easier to do in an alley, etc.). It was not seen as something that married couples engage in. It was seen as degrading to women to perform fellatio (cunnilingus was barely talked about), especially because of its association with prostitution. It was simply something that good people didn't do (or at least didn't talk about). Prior to the 1960s, herpes used to be divided into simplex one (oral) and simplex two (genital) but now the first strain is the cause of over 50% of the genital cases. Why? Oral sex.

Even Freud thought oral sex was symptomatic of developmental problems (oral fixation). Kinsey exposed the practice. The mainstream pornographic movie, "Deep Throat" in 1972 caused quite a stir. My own "sexual awakening" and curiosity occurred around the same time as Monica Lewinsky's blue dress and so oral sex became the topic of my middle school as well (we didn't know anyone who had any kind of sex yet but these days it's happening more). Now oral sex isn't anything people are ashamed about and it's practiced by a large percentage of the population, especially young adults.

I am far from being a virgin and I've had plenty of experience with oral sex with both men and women, both directions. I'm trying (not always successfully) to be celibate right now and I'm not in a relationship so it's not a big issue. Catholic teaching is that it's not natural, since it's contrary to actual reproductive mating.

Many people see oral sex as less than sex, they don't see it as intimate as intercourse (which is a complete turn around from the first half of the 20th c.). People instead see it as a kind of bridge between making out and sexual intercourse. So if I am with a man and I don't want to have sex yet with him or right now, I might give him oral sex as a substitute for intercourse to make him happy. I admit that I enjoy having those skills, to give him pleasure, it's more detail-oriented and like a gift because I don't receive direct stimulation from it. So in some ways it is good, in others it is bad (less intimate).

The way the Church sees it, oral sex is generally unnatural. However, it is acceptable for use prior to intercourse (foreplay), not in substitute of it. That is to say, the sexual act must come to completion in intercourse. No birth control, no condoms, no pulling out -- remember Onan -- it's all or nothing. Remember kids, "Every Sperm is Sacred..."

So the husband going down on the wife is okay, even laudable, especially if she is unable to orgasm from intercourse. The wife going down on the husband is okay as long as it's not taken to completion. All sexual encounters must end in intercourse because that's the main focus of sexuality.

Sexuality is not just about physical pleasure or even emotional intimacy, it's about spiritual growth through this gift of Grace. Having children is how God allows us to work with him in the act of Creation; we're like little gods, making people. (My sister wrote on her MySpace: "I make humans, what's your superpower?") This is why life should be focused on. Birth control, abortion (especially), and homosexual sex take away from that creation of life and extra-marital sex takes away from the gift of marriage.

Sex is good!
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Old 16th October 2009, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Cribstyl View Post
1.Does you church have a teaching on what is approppriate intimacy between husband and wife?

2. Is oral sex within marriage sinful?

(important subject)


Edited.
Alot of christians believe that nothing unclean should enter their mouth. If thats the case, putting something in your mouth that produces menses or semen is wrong.
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  #24  
Old 17th October 2009, 01:12 PM
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I don't know if denominations have any specific or spelled out doctrines dealing with a member's sex life but individual churches and members do. I was instilled with some very prohibitive ideas about sex and the sexual relationship between husband and wife. If it wasn't for the purpose of procreation and that only then it was sin. It was a very old-school, Victorian ethic that rejected the modern belief on sex in marriage. We were supposed to practice dicipline and self control first and foremost and just because you were married didn't excuse you from that. If you were having sex because you just had the urge to then that was lust. It might also cost you your salvation.

The idea was sort of like this:

Song of Solomon - allegory. The modern interpretation of it being the story of King Solomon and his bride having sex for the first time was "worldly" and just wrong. It was how the culture had influenced the Church instead of the other way around. Plus, since Solomon turned his back on God later and became a pagan, why should we even consider him to be a good example?

1 Cor 7 - misinterpreted. The modern church has changed the meaning of this and made it into something that it doesn't really mean. It couldn't possibly mean what people say it does because if it did it would contradict the other things that Paul wrote.

Onan - Onan was killed because of what he did. The penalty for refusing to father a child of your brother's widow was public humiliation. Onan had to have done something far worse.

Modernism - The modern culture came into the Church and distorted it's views on things. Sex maybe being the biggest one. The Church adopted the culture's idea of "if it feels good do it" and applied it to the marriage relationship. We are to be restrained and deny ourselves, not indulge ourselves. Having sex when we get the urge is acting like a common dog in heat and turning your spouse into an object of your gratification and lust.

I know I can't be the only one that had those ideas instilled in them. People just can't believe that people think like that but they do. I've been trying to find people that do believe this and these things to explain why they do believe them to see if it matches up with what I was lead to believe.
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Old 18th October 2009, 10:14 PM
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Old 20th October 2009, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Cribstyl View Post
1.Does you church have a teaching on what is approppriate intimacy between husband and wife?

2. Is oral sex within marriage sinful?

(important subject)


Edited.
I'm pretty sure that my church does not dictate what is sinful and what is not in the marriage bed.
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Old 21st October 2009, 02:51 PM
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“Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time"Whatever is done, it should be mutually agreed upon. No one should be encouraged or coerced to do something that either is uncomfortable with or thinks is wrong.These 2 sentences directly contradict one and other, if one partner is having to encourage or coerce a sexual activity then the other partner is obviously depriving them of it. Oral sex and analingus are very very pleaserable especially to completion, my wife and I will finish with oral 95% of the time as ejaculating in a womans mouth is very erotic. I feel very sorry for other posters I have read on here, they can do what they want to do but they are cheating themselves out of some very pleaserable things that God has given us.

Last edited by presto; 21st October 2009 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 21st October 2009, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jad152 View Post
Alot of christians believe that nothing unclean should enter their mouth. If thats the case, putting something in your mouth that produces menses or semen is wrong.
Be sure to avoid these women when you are dating, you will not be a very happy man, I dont care how hot they are you will want to put a bullet in your head or her head when all the sexual prudery comes out.The bottom line is im going to do what im going to do and if the chruch does not like it then they will no longer be my denomination, I believe what the bible says IN ITS PROPER CONTEXT and thats it, if someone wants to go off the deep end into sexual prudery then I want no part of it.

Last edited by presto; 21st October 2009 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 21st October 2009, 05:13 PM
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Those would be your personal beliefs about sex. What are your church's teachings?
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Old 22nd October 2009, 08:53 AM
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I attend two churches, one would limit all sex to government approved marriage marriage and the other it depends on if your talking the local church or the denomination.
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