Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
We've got an alleged event from the 17th century (back when they burned people suspected of witchcraft), a Bible quote, and an anecdotal news article.
Not very impressive.
The real miracle is that the BBC published this article.
I have no doubt that many of the sick who go there are uplifted, given the ability to live with their illness and feel part of a community that transcends place, race or time. Is that a miracle ? Whatever it's called, it is something wonderful.
"The Lord may show me that there's a lady here who's being healed of an ear condition, somebody here being cured of a throat condition," he says. "I was in Australia recently and there was a man who had cancer in his mouth. We asked the people with cancers to stand, and I commanded the cancers in the name of Jesus to disappear. Two minutes after the prayer, there was no cancer in his mouth; it was a perfectly new mouth. His doctor came over and verified the healing. That's slightly challenging if you don't believe in these things, isn't it?"
Quality journalism right there!
__________________ "Myles, one can tell you're a liberal just by observing how many words it takes you to say nothing. Your non-American spelling of "honor" is also a giveaway."
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The real miracle is that the BBC published this article.Quality journalism right there!
Instead of BBC's hearsay, I'd much rather have a documented case study in a medical journal, by medical professionals, specifically an oncologists and pathologists who are actually qualified to make medical judgments and reports. Not a.... BBC reporter.
bmj.
Extract, not enough elaboration. Doctor gives reasons he now believes in faith healing, perhaps he makes a convincing case, but I cannot read it without a subscription so I don't find it particularly revealing. Furthermore it is personal testimony, not part of a study. Personal testimony from someone with a medical degree, but personal testimony nonetheless.
Geocities. Personally I never take anything as a source from geocities, even if I'm doing a history paper and I know whatever is on the site is what I have learned in class, I still don't use it as a credible source, just an indication of what to look for. Furthermore the site is of a christian bias.
timesonline
Doctors in the Vatican
first mistake right there. Medically unlikely events are immediately touted as miracles the second no one bothers to look into it further.
The last link doesn't work.
Really, I just want to see a real study, done by actual medical doctors that confirms faith healing in a way that points directly to a supernatural Godlike force with no possibility for other explanation. Even if someone was healed supernaturally, who's to say it was God, and not something like unrealized psychic abilities present in the person performing the faith healing? Neither possibility holds any credibility without a piece of evidence that actually points to it as the only or most likely explanation.
__________________ "We can easily forgive a child that is afraid of the dark, the real tragedy is when people are afraid of the light"
-Plato
What next I have to provide video footage? "...also developed severe tuberculous peritonitis. Carrel examined her shortly before she visited the grotto at Lourdes and was convinced that she was very close to death. At the grotto a miracle happened. The peritonitis disappeared in a few minutes, and Marie, though still weak from inanition, knew that she was cured. Carrel had no doubts about it. Marie had been given up for..." http://www.bmj.com/cgi/search?fulltext=miracle&sortspec=date
Asking me to find peer-reviewed journals isn't really fair,
Are you kidding?! I'm holding you to the exact same standards as the rest of the scientific field. NO, you do not get a "Get out of Jail Free" card, you have to actually prove what you say!
Originally Posted by catzrfluffy
they have to be subscribed to to read.
Wrong. All research funded by the government, at least, is required to be released into the public domain within 6 months, at least in the U.S.A.
A vast majority of journals release their material online for free within a few years. It is generally considered unethical to not release medical research for free after a short time, since a professional could use that research to save lives.
Originally Posted by catzrfluffy
Is there another acceptable source?
Absolutely not. I am going to hold you to the same standards as everyone else.
Geocities? I'm not going to bother. Make the effort to go through the link, find the in-line citation and follow it to the International Medical Bureau's resources, or the primary literature.
Normally the abstract is enough to see what the paper is on about. Besides a lot of us here have subscriptions so we can check if you cite a paper that you think supports your case.
__________________ When I die, they will put my body in a box and dispose of it in the cold ground.
And in all the million ages to come, I will never breathe or laugh or twitch again.
So won't you run and play with me here among the
teeming mass of humanity?
The universe has spared us this moment.
A cripple in a wheelchair was taken to Lourdes for the cure, on the way down to the pool the person pushing the chair tripped and let go of the handles, the cripple and the chair both went into the water, when they pulled them out the cripple was still a cripple but the chair had a new set of Dunlop tyres.
Religions have relied on the gullable for thousands of years to keep them going, they are not about to stop now.
Why do you think there are so many religions in the world when only 'one' is needed for the 'one' God?
I suspect you would say that the 'one' is the 'one' you believe, but then again so would everyone else, don't you find that strange? I suppose it's a bit like supporting your local football team. (football as in the game where the ball is passed using the feet, Americans call in soccer but the rest of the world knows it as football, American football should be called throwball)
Last edited by godsmission; 19th October 2009 at 07:35 AM.
medical journals don't actually release their stuff for free, go on one and see.
The vast majority do, at least after a few years. If there was any government support of the research, they are legally required to do so after 6 months.
Again, most biomedical journals release their content for free within a few years for ethical reasons, because they are documenting things that can directly help doctors make diagnosis and reviews of new surgical techniques and such.
Here's one that looks like it has all of its 1 year old content going up for free. http://thejns.org/
Last edited by laconicstudent; 19th October 2009 at 10:36 PM.
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