Yes, and an earthquake destroyed that bath house shortly afterwards. His words were true.
That was a time when Bishops were not afraid of preaching the truth in season or out.
Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us and protect us by Your Holy Cross.
Ahhhhh
I knew St John wouldn't even be in the place....for fear of that man's heresy. [Where is that fear today??]
Imagine if the Lord gave direct answers like that now...
Originally Posted by 2Cosmic2Charlie
You're right its not.
The Sample is acting like it is. This has got a "I'll give you until sundown to get out of town" tinge to it.
Its also kind of childish. "Stay out of my yard"
If I was the other Bishop I'd stand on the border of his dioese and put one foot in, then remove it repeatedly while saying "I'm in, I'm out"
Draw Guns.
CC - serious question - as you might have skimmed over my post. Was the Apostle St John childish for leaving the bath house because he knew a heretic walked in?
Was the Lord childish for causing an earthquake that caused that bath house to fall in on said heretic??
See, the Lord isn't playing around when it comes to His doctrines..or His Church.
Bishops are suffering in hell or purgatory for similar.
SO say visions of the Saints.
Think about.
Ppl might not take it so seriously, but God does.
God - for some apparent reason - is zealous for His truth.
Originally Posted by Fantine
I would like to state that I am aware the Church has a hierarchical structure.
But the concept of what constitutes an effective leader has changed in the past 500 years (although bishops like Sample, Marino, Burke, and Chaput don't recognize it.)
Jesus, of course, set the example of servant leadership.
See above what i said to CC.
500 - 1000 - 20 years - it doesnt matter. God does NOT change.
God is not mocked.
Jesus told the Pharisees off BECAUSE they were practicing things 'THEIR OWN WAY AND NOT GOD'S'
Not to be confused with legalism, which they were, but the legalism was human tradition of washing hands [so forth] - which Jesus rebuked them for NOT keeping the Commandments of God as sterile. [as important]
See?
But the modern concept of leadership recognizes that effective leaders are collaborative teambuilders, that they affirm the people whom they lead, that the people they lead give them the capacity to lead through the mutual respect they share.
And so then along come these bishops who think they can browbeat and bully people into submission. When I hear their names, an image comes into my mind--the soup Nazi on Seinfeld. "No Communion for you..." (Did I mention the soup Nazi was arbitrary and capricious?)
And so it has nothing to do with their conservatism (unless you associate controlling, dictatorial leadership style with conservatism.) It has to do with how little they follow Jesus' model of servant leadership.
Jesus is no respecter of person's who have agendas that will lead to heresy - calamity of the faithful and scandal.
Seriously ppl, why did Jesus say...they will say to Him [at judgement] 'Lord Lord...i expelled demons in your name.' AND HE WILL SAY 'Away from Me accursed - i knew you not.'...??
[Look up in the Bible for more exacting detail] I am just giving the understanding of it.
Originally Posted by Gwendolyn
Somehow I doubt that Jesus would just smile and stand aside as someone taught false doctrine to His faithful.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
It's no big surprise that this man has it wrong BTW - for in case anyone tells me he cannot be accountable. Jesus set up a Church and a Church upon His Rock.
That Church has continued to teach the very same doctrines since the start.
It's not a BIG surprise to ANYONE what the teachings are. When judgement comes - and NO ONE knows when - or how sudden - we take our chances by professing against that Church - those doctrines.
Jesus cherishes obedience above all... and obedience stems from our love of Him, and others - and so it is perfect to be humble and obedient.
The Bible tells us to be mindful - to know the faith and discern those who would lead us astray.
If you go against the Church - that the gates of hell shall not prevail against - you probably are already lost in heresy. WILL we have an excuse at the end? Well, the teachings are for all the world to know - so its not likely. I am sure some might have an excuse... But Catholics - not so much.
Catholics, from what i have read, are judged the absolute hardest. If you think the Mercy of the Lord extends to deliberate disobedience - take the chances...its your free will. The Lord delivers Mercy upon those who recant their sins and humbly beseech His forgiveness... Willful pride, disobedience - well, as i said Saints have seen the suffering of prelates due to their errors.
We will have NO WHERE to hide at Judgement...and we can tell ourselves we will be covered, that its ok to have our 'preferences' but nah, at Judgement everything is made manifest - even the excuses we tell ourselves we have - and it will not fly.
We can fool ourselves - we can fool the world, BUT there is NO way we can fool God. Not a chance.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
Public Citizen of the Year Natl. Assoc. of Social Workers (1980)
Institute for Peace and Justice (1981)
Justice and Peace Medal - St. Bonaventure University (1981)
Jewish National Fund - Trees for Israel (1981)
American Personnel & Guidance Assoc. (1981)
Life Achievement Award - Interfaith Peace Ministry (1987)
Groundwork Discipleship Award (1989)
The Institute for International Peace - University of Notre Dame (1990)
Palestine Aid Society (1990)
University of Notre Dame Peacemaker (1991)
Pope Paul VI Teacher of Peace - Pax Christi USA (1991)
Pax Christi MI Purple Ribbon Award (1992)
Pax Christi Ambassador of Peace (1992)
Joseph C. Wilson Award - Xerox Corp. (1992)
Pax Christi N.Y. Peacemaker Award (1992)
Certificate of Appreciation - Dignity Detroit (1992)
Honorary Chaplaincy Aids Award (1994)
Outstanding Service & Witness Award Dignity/USA (1995)
Bridge Building Award - New Ways Ministry (1995)
Lifelong Honorary membership - In Pax Christi International (1995)
Call to Action Leadership Award (1995)
San Damiano - Madonna U. Press Symposium (1996)
National Peace Foundation - Award of Peacemaker/Peacebuilder (1997)
The Francis House Award (1997)
Spirit of Detroit Award (1998)
Alliance for Nuclear Accountability (1998)
Bishop Dozier Peace & Justice Award - Christian Brothers University (1998)
Humanitarian Award, MI Coalition for Human Rights (1998)
1998 PHD Award, Harambee, Core City Neighborhoods (1998)
1999 Peacemaking Award - Nebraskans for Peace (1999)
1999 Washington Theological Union - Distinguished Service Award (1999)
Prophets of Peace Award - Benedictine Sisters of Erie (2000)
Faithful Revolutionary Award - St. James Justice Action Ministry (2000)
Civic & Humanitarian Award - Arab-American & Chaldean Council (2000)
Lou Kousin Award - New Jersey Peace Action (2001)
Humanitarian Service Award - LIFE for Relief & Development (2001)
Lifetime Achievement Peacebuilder Award - Peace Action of Michigan (2002)
Lifetime Achievement in Peacemaking - University of Missouri (2002)
Dignity USA (2003)
Sadako Peace Citation - Disarmament and Economic Conversion Committee of Sisters & Co-members of the Loretto Community (2003)
Reconciler Award - National Franciscan Federation (2003)
Theresa Maxis Award for Social Justice - Marygrove College, National Franciscan Federation (2003)
Philip A. Hart Award - Michigan Women’s Hall of Fame (2003)
Community Peace Maker Award - Wayne State University (2003)
2005 Global Peace Award (2005)
Mercyhurst College's Archbishop Oscar Romero Award (2007)
Bishop Gumbleton has traveled extensively, given speeches, and has participated in prayer vigils and television and radio appearances. Gumbleton's Sunday homilies from St Leo's parish are documented by the National Catholic Reporter, where he also wrote a regular column.[3]
According to Wikipedia, the only kind of 'censure' Gumbleton ever received was not being allowed to extend his retirement age beyond 75....
That's not really a censure. Gumbleton said it was because he revealed that he had been a victim of a sexual abuse incident in the seminary, and because he lobbied for victims.
Hey, folks, considering how many bishops swept things under the rug, this makes him one of the GOOD guys.
__________________
Theodore Roosevelt said, “People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.”
The elder prelate, who once held the title of Vicar General of Detroit, counts himself as a member of radical heterodox groups such as New Ways Ministry and Call to Action, both of which have been censured by the Vatican for moral and doctrinal reasons, especially over the promotion of homosexual behavior as a valid normative lifestyle. Members of Call to Action are also excommunicated in one US diocese and the group agitates for contraception, abortion, divorce and remarriage, and change in the governmental structure of the Church.
It is non negotiable.
He stands for heterodox theology and doctrine...no matter how many awards he gained in the eyes of the world....he is out right disobeying the laws of Christ's Church.
It is unacceptable to put that sort of teaching on a pedestal.
I am sure with everything else on the Vatican's plate - they dont have time to look into this further and made him retire.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
The elder prelate, who once held the title of Vicar General of Detroit, counts himself as a member of radical heterodox groups such as New Ways Ministry and Call to Action, both of which have been censured by the Vatican for moral and doctrinal reasons, especially over the promotion of homosexual behavior as a valid normative lifestyle. Members of Call to Action are also excommunicated in one US diocese and the group agitates for contraception, abortion, divorce and remarriage, and change in the governmental structure of the Church.
So you are saying that it is his membership in some groups and not anything he did individually that has raised the hackles of Bishop Sample?
The diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska is probably the most conservative in the United States, and what goes on there is hardly typical. I knew a college girl who tried to attend Mass at the Newman Center at U of N and was told she had to wear a skirt. (This was in the late 1990's.) Bishop's orders.
Obviously in a place like Lincoln, NE you could be excommunicated for breathing the wrong way...
__________________
Theodore Roosevelt said, “People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.”
Um, would you invite someone to teach your parish - souls you will be judged for - if they taught error??
Fantine, Bishops have to be judged according to what they teach and accept as teachings.
They take account of the souls who are lost.
Hebrews [Paul] tells us that.
Woe to the man that scndal comes...is pretty serious. Woe is hell.
So, knowing this, in the shoes of Bishop Sample, would you be willing to take that chance?
If this man is flaunting his membership to an apostate group - and knowing God will punish you for the teachings you allow - which are error that cause the weak to fall - you mean to tell me you would say 'To heck with my judgement - the world likes you...come on in.'
Fantine, ppl take that seriously, and not nearly as much as they should now, but eternity is forever. And those who have the grace of God to know the teachings and obey them, will not chance their own salvation for the earthly moment for the sake of friendship or otherwise.
Its called prudence...and wisdom.
This Bishop needs to recant his association, and the errors and the concept that the heirarchy of the Church needs remodeled.
He is fighting a losing battle, and one that may jeopardise his eternal salvation.
Again, Catholics are judged much harder for their faith in the Church and Christ than others...but moreso are the prelates.
Let me show the scriptures regarding the prelates [Bishops].
Hebrews 13 17 Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you.
Ya know - if we profess the wrong messages in light of what the Church teaches in willfull disobedience, God is letting the tares grow with the wheat but we will eventually pay for those times. One way or another, and as i said and repeat moreso for the prelates.
Jesus said the more one is given, the more one is judged on.
I am sorry - but we have NO excuses.
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Matthew Chapter 7
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
Gumbleton and Lefebvre, two sides of the same coin. Neither should be praised.
__________________ Other causes demand commitment, abortion demands complicity. Other causes survive by energy and attention. The survival of the abortion industry - and it is an industry - depends upon avoidance and silence. Bob Casey Sr.
If pregnancy presents a challenge, do we as a society rise to the challenge by dispensing with the child? And when a pregnancy comes at a difficult time, what is the worthier response? Do we surround mother and child with protection and love, or do we hold out to her the cold comfort of a trip to an abortionist? Where is our true character as a nation to be seen - let's ask ourselves this question: Where is our true character to be seen, in an adoptive home, or in an abortion clinic? Who are we? Who are we America? That question deserves an answer. Bob Casey Sr.
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Bishop Sample acknowledges that Bishop Gumbleton was invited to speak on a subject--peace--in which he is a strong supporter of Church teaching and one of the foremost authorities on the subject.
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Theodore Roosevelt said, “People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.”
Praise be to God! And kudos to Bishop Sample! Hearing news like this makes me so happy. I'm so glad that Bishop Sample stood up for what is right!
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"There is one true Church, the really ancient Church into which are enrolled those who are righteous according to God's ordinance.... In essence, in idea, in origin, in preeminence we say that the ancient Catholic Church is the only Church." - Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (Before 215 AD)
"The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).
And kudos to Bishop Sample! 
Hearing news like this makes me so happy. 
I'm so glad that Bishop Sample stood up for what is right! 
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