Calvinism Clearly Refuted

Robert Pate · #1 12th October 2009, 02:36 PM

Calvinism Clearly Refuted

If everyone is predestinated why did Jesus command his apostles to go into ALL THE WORLD and preach the Gospel to every creature? Mark 16:15. And then in verse 16, "He that believes in me will be saved, and he that does not believe will be damned." It is quite evident that salvation is by faith and not by being predestinated.

If everyone is predestinated why preach the Gospel at all?

The preaching of the Gospel is what draws men men to Christ. Jesus said, "When I am lifted up (up on the cross) I will draw ALL MEN to myself." When the Gospel is preached the Holy Spirit is there to convict men of their need for Christ. This is how the 5000 were converted on the day of Pentecost. Peter preached the Gospel. Peter did not say this Gospel is for only the elect, No, he said, "It shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER (meaning all people) shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved," Acts 2:21.

John 1:7, The same came for a witness, of the light, that ALL MEN through him might be saved.

John 3:16, For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 22:15, For you shall be witnesses unto ALL MEN of what you have seen and heard.

Romans 5:12, Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon ALL MEN, for that all have sinned.

Romans 5:18, Therefore by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.

Romans 8:32, He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up FOR US ALL, how shall he not give us all things.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15, For the love of God constrains us; because we thus judge, that if one died FOR ALL, then we are ALL dead. And he that died FOR ALL, which should not live unto themselves.

2 Corinthians 5:19, God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD unto himself.

2 Corinthians 9:13, While by experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection into the Gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto ALL MEN.

Ephesians 3:9, And to make ALL MEN see what is the fellowship of the mystery from which from the beginning was hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 2:4, Who will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come into the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:5-6, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ who gave himself ransome FOR ALL.

1 Timothy 4:10, For therefore we labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of ALL MEN, especially those who believe.

Titus 2:11, For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN.

Hebrews 2:9, But we Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN.

Hebrews 10:10, By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once FOR ALL.

James 1:15, If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of god, that gives to ALL MEN liberally.

1 John 2:2, And he is the propititiation for our sin: and not only our sins but the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

1 John 5:4, For whatsoever or WHOSOEVER is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world OUR FAITH.

2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning his promises as some men count slackness; but is long suffering toward us, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL MEN should come to repentance.

There is not one scripture in the Bible that says anyone is predestinated to heaven or to hell. Calvinism is a doctrine that is built on asumptions and not on the concrete facts of the Bible.

Salvation is by grace through faith, there is no grace in a God that by his sovereign will condemns people to hell for no reason, nor can anyone have faith in a God that would do such a thing.

Miss Elly · #2 12th October 2009, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Robert Pate

Calvinism Clearly Refuted

If everyone is predestinated why did Jesus command his apostles to go into ALL THE WORLD and preach the Gospel to every creature? Mark 16:15. And then in verse 16, "He that believes in me will be saved, and he that does not believe will be damned." It is quite evident that salvation is by faith and not by being predestinated.

If everyone is predestinated why preach the Gospel at all?

The preaching of the Gospel is what draws men men to Christ. Jesus said, "When I am lifted up (up on the cross) I will draw ALL MEN to myself." When the Gospel is preached the Holy Spirit is there to convict men of their need for Christ. This is how the 5000 were converted on the day of Pentecost. Peter preached the Gospel. Peter did not say this Gospel is for only the elect, No, he said, "It shall come to pass that WHOSOEVER (meaning all people) shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved," Acts 2:21.

John 1:7, The same came for a witness, of the light, that ALL MEN through him might be saved.

John 3:16, For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 22:15, For you shall be witnesses unto ALL MEN of what you have seen and heard.

Romans 5:12, Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon ALL MEN, for that all have sinned.

Romans 5:18, Therefore by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.

Romans 8:32, He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up FOR US ALL, how shall he not give us all things.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15, For the love of God constrains us; because we thus judge, that if one died FOR ALL, then we are ALL dead. And he that died FOR ALL, which should not live unto themselves.

2 Corinthians 5:19, God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD unto himself.

2 Corinthians 9:13, While by experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection into the Gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto ALL MEN.

Ephesians 3:9, And to make ALL MEN see what is the fellowship of the mystery from which from the beginning was hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 2:4, Who will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come into the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:5-6, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ who gave himself ransome FOR ALL.

1 Timothy 4:10, For therefore we labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of ALL MEN, especially those who believe.

Titus 2:11, For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL MEN.

Hebrews 2:9, But we Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN.

Hebrews 10:10, By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once FOR ALL.

James 1:15, If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of god, that gives to ALL MEN liberally.

1 John 2:2, And he is the propititiation for our sin: and not only our sins but the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

1 John 5:4, For whatsoever or WHOSOEVER is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world OUR FAITH.

2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slack concerning his promises as some men count slackness; but is long suffering toward us, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL MEN should come to repentance.

There is not one scripture in the Bible that says anyone is predestinated to heaven or to hell. Calvinism is a doctrine that is built on asumptions and not on the concrete facts of the Bible.

Salvation is by grace through faith, there is no grace in a God that by his sovereign will condemns people to hell for no reason, nor can anyone have faith in a God that would do such a thing.

Exactly what I believe. To my way of thinking perhaps the Calvinists are using different wording - maybe presdestination to them means "foreknew" to us????? I believe in giving some the benefit of the doubt whether I agree with all their doctrine or not. God will separate the wheat from the chaff. God will use his gospel of salvation, no matter who preaches it, Calvinist or no.

Robert Pate · #3 12th October 2009, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Miss Elly

Exactly what I believe. To my way of thinking perhaps the Calvinists are using different wording - maybe presdestination to them means "foreknew" to us????? I believe in giving some the benefit of the doubt whether I agree with all their doctrine or not. God will separate the wheat from the chaff. God will use his gospel of salvation, no matter who preaches it, Calvinist or no.

Good for you.

Predestinationism does not honor God. It appears that God cannot get anyone to believe upon him, so he drafts them into his kingdom.

Faith brings honor and glory to God because it is by man's own free will that he he accepts Christ as his savior and not because he is forced to or made to.

heymikey80 · #4 12th October 2009, 04:36 PM

this divine grace of regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms, and--in a manner at once pleasing and powerful--bends it back. As a result, a ready and sincere obedience of the Spirit now begins to prevail where before the rebellion and resistance of the flesh were completely dominant. It is in this that the true and spiritual restoration and freedom of our will consists. Thus, if the marvelous Maker of every good thing were not dealing with us, man would have no hope of getting up from his fall by his free choice, by which he plunged himself into ruin when still standing upright.
Canons of Dordt 3.16

God ordains means as well as ends.

Predestination is Biblical, it's utterly involving the humanity of man, but it also bears due recognition of the power of God to change people.

The OP has mislabelled something as Calvinism. The result is error in identification.

This was covered and on the front page not even a week ago. A similar point was posted not a day ago as well.

And it was communicated to you, Robert Pate, last time you were here. Actually many times, not just in this one example.

those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified Romans 8:30

Justification's by the person's faith. Predestined people are also justified.

How's this work? Well, faith comes from the heart (Rom 10:10). It's a reliance on a Person, not some special knowledge or something within us, or something predicted that we would desire or do. (Rom 9:16) And God's about the business of changing hearts (Jer 31:33, Ez 11:19, Rom 2:29, 2 Cor 3:3, Gal 4:6).

Tzaousios · #5 12th October 2009, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Robert Pate

There is not one scripture in the Bible that says anyone is predestinated to heaven or to hell.

Setting aside predestination to hell, what do you think the Bible is talking about when it mentions "election"?

If we take the revealed attributes of God as being true, namely that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and sovereign over creation, how does He keep from ordering events and sustaining the universe? Does God know the future?

Originally Posted by Robert Pate

Calvinism is a doctrine that is built on asumptions and not on the concrete facts of the Bible.

Interacting with the text and discussing it is in itself an interpretation of the text or "concrete facts." This side of heaven people will always bring assumptions and interpretations to the table when discussing the Bible.

Originally Posted by Robert Pate

Salvation is by grace through faith, there is no grace in a God that by his sovereign will condemns people to hell for no reason, nor can anyone have faith in a God that would do such a thing.

Where do Calvinists assert that God condemns people to Hell for no reason? All are dead in sin and trespasses and are guilty before a holy and righteous God. What do you think the original Flood was about?

CmRoddy · #6 12th October 2009, 07:05 PM

Pate, your argument is built upon ignorance. So here is my answer.

Not at all.

First of all, we were commanded to do so by Christ. Period. I shouldn't even have to go beyond that and the argument would be over. We are told in Romans 10:17 that faith comes by hearing, and so God uses us as a means to bring His sheep into His fold. However, I will supply more arguments for why Predestination doesn't and shouldn't stop evangelism.

Second, we do not know the identity of the elect. We are not called to function on that basis. Paul made the proclamation that he "endure[s] all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory" (2 Tim. 2:10).

Thirdly, Jesus said that He "has other sheep that are not of this fold" and He "must bring them also" (John 10:16). Since Rom. 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing, we must preach the Gospel to everyone because that is the means God uses to bring people to salvation.

Fourthly, 1 Corinthians 1:22-24 speaks on this issue clearly. It reads:

22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

We see that the apostles are preaching the Gospel to people who find it to be a "stumbling block" and "foolishness". But notice v. 24 carefully. It says "but to those who are called" the Gospel (Christ crucified) becomes the power and wisdom of God. How do these people come to faith? How does the Gospel become the power and wisdom of God? Because the apostles preached Christ crucified.

Fifthly, 2 Timothy 2:24-26 is another glowing example of how God uses our preaching of the Gospel as a means to bring those He grants to believe (His elect) onto salvation. It reads:

24The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

The "bond-servant" are the ones preaching the Gospel and they must be "able to teach" and "with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition." Why? "if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."

God uses the teaching and preaching of His bond-servants as a means to bring people to repentance and to bring them "from the snare of the devil."

Sixth, Acts 13:48 is yet another example of God using the preaching of His bond-servants as a means. It reads:

48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Now, when the Gentiles in the audience heard the Gospel, what happened? "They began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord." Why did I bring up this passage? Because the last part of the verse is key. It says that all of those who "had been appointed to eternal life believed." God used the preaching of the Gospel to bring those He elected into salvation. This all ties back to Rom. 10:17 and how faith comes by hearing the Gospel.

And one last thing, Jesus said in John 10:26 that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. We don't have to worry about whether or not the person we are preaching and evangelizing to is elect or not; if they are part of Jesus' sheep they will hear His voice. We leave it up to God at that point.

So no, divine election, in no logical way, takes away from evangelistic necessity or evangelistic calling that someone has.

archierieus · #7 12th October 2009, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by CmRoddy

God used the preaching of the Gospel to bring those He elected into salvation.

Incorrect. The verb is a perfect middle participle, it says nothing about God electing them. The verb does mean to place in position toward salvation. Kittel gives an excellent treatment of this verse, see the Eph. 2:8 thread, I can quote it here if you like. This verse has nothing to do with predestination, it does have to do with recognition of status based on their believing the message preached.

CmRoddy · #8 12th October 2009, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by archierieus

Incorrect. The verb is a perfect middle participle, it says nothing about God electing them. The verb does mean to place in position toward salvation. Kittel gives an excellent treatment of this verse, see the Eph. 2:8 thread, I can quote it here if you like. This verse has nothing to do with predestination, it does have to do with recognition of status based on their believing the message preached.

So faith doesn't come by hearing, Archie?

Robert Pate · #9 12th October 2009, 07:52 PM

Who are the elect?

The elect are all who are in Christ.

Who are in Christ?

Jesus Christ came into the world as the new Adam and representative of the human race, Romans 5:19. He embraced our humanity and did those things which we are not capable of doing for ourselves. By his sinless life he offered to God a life of perfect obedience, he did this in our name and on our behalf, just like we did it ourselves.

By his death on the cross he defeated the devil and put away sin.

Jesus Christ is our justification, Romans 4:5.

God does nothing outside of Jesus Christ. He is the first-born of every creature. for by him were all things created that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers: all things were created by him and for him. And he is before all things and by him all things consist. and he is the head of the body , the church; who is the beginning, the first born of the dead: that in all things he might have the pre-eminence. Colossians 1:16-18.

All of humanity has been elected in Jesus Christ. As the new Adam and representative of the human race he has perfected humanity in himself and has taken it heaven. No one needs to be predestinated. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, it is a done deal. Salvation has been provided for all who want it. Salvation is and always has been by grace through faith.

JimfromOhio · #10 12th October 2009, 08:06 PM

Only God through the Holy Spirit that saves the elect. Calvinism is a doctrine. Its a teaching and nothing more than that. I know who are my brethren in Christ regardless whether they believe in Calvinism, Lutheranism or any other doctrines simply by watching their fruits. There are many who are judging based on bickering doctrines than God-centered fruitful lives. Do not have a "tunnel vision" based on brethren's beliefs alone. We need to look at their whole being.