When there's been a history of inappropriate action, yes, it's hard to put things out there. There's been a lot of hurt generated because mods let stuff leak that was in the discussion stages or in the planning stages. We had other staff members quit because of the comments that were made, or because of PMs that were sent.
I don't blame them for being cautious.
And, most of the members thought it was unfair that staff had access to their reports while members did not. I assume, though, that you're not questioning THAT aspect of moving things.
While I think it would be better to get the member's side of things PRIOR to the decision, perhaps with the post removal while under review, it doesn't strike me as intrinsically wrong as not trusting your own staff with information that they will be expected to enforce in the near future. When I resigned, it was not over hurt feelings about what was said in staff areas, but over a pattern of behavior where MAJOR, changes were dropped on me last minute which I then, of course, had to explain to the masses when i was as clueless as them. There was no notice to staff with the closing of the safehouse forums. There was little to no notice on the GA closing. GA was the straw that broke the camel's back, but the politics one, where staff had JUST SAID the forums would reopen in 2 weeks, was perhaps the biggest screw you to staff and largest factor in my resignation. (the removal from staff within days of getting mod status the second time around makes me question the motives behind that, but that is a separate matter.)
Originally Posted by PreachersWife2004
Actually, not generally. Hardly at all, actually. We usually come into the game because someone is broadcasting their confusion or dislike all over the boards. I get PMs from members about reports, but more people just like to complain about them in threads. And they're usually people that know the system well enough to know that A - it's against the rules and B - they should be contacting the mods or the admins.
In the reportings of warnings ~elsewhere, most include a text of a PM sent back to the mod or an admin. If these aren't getting posted in the report thread, that's a failure on your end.
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While I think it would be better to get the member's side of things PRIOR to the decision, perhaps with the post removal while under review, it doesn't strike me as intrinsically wrong as not trusting your own staff with information that they will be expected to enforce in the near future. When I resigned, it was not over hurt feelings about what was said in staff areas, but over a pattern of behavior where MAJOR, changes were dropped on me last minute which I then, of course, had to explain to the masses when i was as clueless as them. There was no notice to staff with the closing of the safehouse forums. There was little to no notice on the GA closing. GA was the straw that broke the camel's back, but the politics one, where staff had JUST SAID the forums would reopen in 2 weeks, was perhaps the biggest screw you to staff and largest factor in my resignation. (the removal from staff within days of getting mod status the second time around makes me question the motives behind that, but that is a separate matter.)
Sometimes drastic situations call for drastic measures. With the safehouses, those were generating 20-30 reports on any given day. We didn't have the luxury of getting the staff's viewpoint on it. I'd be willing to bet that 85% of the staff didn't post there and weren't even aware those safehouses existed. They needed to be shut down. Ya know what? It worked. They've calmed down.
We knew for weeks that GA was going to be shut down. Sure, there were a lot of staffers unhappy about it, but at the same time, it was a necessary thing. We STILL have issues with apologetics creeping into the E&M forums. And it's still the same people just wanting to pick a bone with Christians rather than good old fashioned honest discourse. That just wasn't happening in GA, and what WAS happening is that we had members who were weak in their faith visiting this area and getting their tushes handed to them on a platter because they were only working on the milk and not the meat. We had people deconverting at an alarming speed. The atmosphere was one of hate and discord. People thought that GA was an area where they could belittle and insult Christians under the guise of "debate". Now, maybe at a secular site that would be acceptable, but not on a Christian site.
In the reportings of warnings ~elsewhere, most include a text of a PM sent back to the mod or an admin. If these aren't getting posted in the report thread, that's a failure on your end.
Our protocol states to include ALL PMs in a report. I can't speak for other teams but I know that Society is very compliant in that regard. If someone comes to me and says "I PMd so-and-so about this and never got an answer (or a clear answer)" the first thing I do is go to the reports. If the PM is there I'll take a look at it. If there's not a PM I ask the member to forward the PM they sent to me. On one occasion the member had the PM and forwarded it to me, and it wasn't posted in the report because they sent it to someone who was no longer on staff. The rest of the time the members either ignored the request or claimed they no longer had the PM - which I would then just blatantly ask the mod(s) if they had received a PM.
As I said before, there are checks and balances. Will mods make mistakes? Of course...we all have over the course of our tenure here on CF. The question is, are the mods handling the mistakes when they are discovered? In my daily perusings and my admin actions, I will say yes. I've reversed warnings when we've thought they were issued wrongly or incorrectly. I've done extensive talking with members who think they've been wronged by the system, whether they have been or not.
I may carry an elephant icon, but I fight equally for conservatives and liberals to have the right to post here without getting flamed. I watch diligently to make sure that violations are handled correctly. Because Society carries the political section, I am almost OCD about keeping an eye on that stuff - mainly because so many on either side of the fence like to accuse us of being bias.
How can I be bias towards both sides? To me, that's an indication of being fair.
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Sometimes drastic situations call for drastic measures. With the safehouses, those were generating 20-30 reports on any given day. We didn't have the luxury of getting the staff's viewpoint on it. I'd be willing to bet that 85% of the staff didn't post there and weren't even aware those safehouses existed. They needed to be shut down. Ya know what? It worked. They've calmed down.
Really? I don't remember it quieting down all that much. If it quieted down months after the event, I would question whether that was really the cause. Keep in mind you weren't on society staff at that point if my memory serves. As far as what staff posted in, with the size of the forum, I couldn't list a tenth of the forums on the site. saying that 85% of the staff are in my shoes is unimpressive. Given that the safehouses were closed for 2 weeks at that point, I would say that we DID have the luxury of those 2 weeks of discussion. You know what? it still didn't happen.
Originally Posted by PreachersWife2004
We knew for weeks that GA was going to be shut down. Sure, there were a lot of staffers unhappy about it, but at the same time, it was a necessary thing. We STILL have issues with apologetics creeping into the E&M forums. And it's still the same people just wanting to pick a bone with Christians rather than good old fashioned honest discourse. That just wasn't happening in GA, and what WAS happening is that we had members who were weak in their faith visiting this area and getting their tushes handed to them on a platter because they were only working on the milk and not the meat. We had people deconverting at an alarming speed. The atmosphere was one of hate and discord. People thought that GA was an area where they could belittle and insult Christians under the guise of "debate". Now, maybe at a secular site that would be acceptable, but not on a Christian site.
If you knew for weeks that GA was closing, I would be surprised. There MIGHT have been a week's notice as I recall. The staff opinion was pretty decidedly towards it being a bad idea both from a practical and a faith based perspective. Simply ignoring questions does not make them go away. I say this as both a Christian and a poster. You've basically admitted here that it was concern that it was net negative on conversions. Guess what, unless you think you can shield posters from these questions by keeping them from being addressed on largely friendly terms, you've only moved those deconversions to other places. Atheists do not fear being questioned so, why should we?
Originally Posted by PreachersWife2004
I may carry an elephant icon, but I fight equally for conservatives and liberals to have the right to post here without getting flamed. I watch diligently to make sure that violations are handled correctly. Because Society carries the political section, I am almost OCD about keeping an eye on that stuff - mainly because so many on either side of the fence like to accuse us of being bias.
I've yet to see a conservative lament your liberal nature. You were not know among the staff or the posters to be as even handed as some of the others to bear that same elephant. I'm sorry, but it is the truth.
Originally Posted by PreachersWife2004
How can I be bias towards both sides? To me, that's an indication of being fair.
As I've said myself countless times. There is wisdom in that, but I'm not sure it applies as well to you as it did to sojo an others who bore that same elephant.
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Really? I don't remember it quieting down all that much. If it quieted down months after the event, I would question whether that was really the cause. Keep in mind you weren't on society staff at that point if my memory serves. As far as what staff posted in, with the size of the forum, I couldn't list a tenth of the forums on the site. saying that 85% of the staff are in my shoes is unimpressive. Given that the safehouses were closed for 2 weeks at that point, I would say that we DID have the luxury of those 2 weeks of discussion. You know what? it still didn't happen.
We may be talking about two different events then. I was talking about the safehouses closing just recently, like in the last two months. They were actually going to be shut down permanently at that time.
If you knew for weeks that GA was closing, I would be surprised. There MIGHT have been a week's notice as I recall. The staff opinion was pretty decidedly towards it being a bad idea both from a practical and a faith based perspective. Simply ignoring questions does not make them go away. I say this as both a Christian and a poster. You've basically admitted here that it was concern that it was net negative on conversions. Guess what, unless you think you can shield posters from these questions by keeping them from being addressed on largely friendly terms, you've only moved those deconversions to other places. Atheists do not fear being questioned so, why should we?
It was one of the concerns, probably one of the main concerns. But the biggest problem is that it was an area ripe with fighting, flaming and numerous rule violations. Even closing it down temporarily didn't stop that. Atheists were insulting Christians, Christians were insulting atheists. Simply put, it was not doing anything to God's glory. Why on earth would you ever want that to continue here?
I've yet to see a conservative lament your liberal nature. You were not know among the staff or the posters to be as even handed as some of the others to bear that same elephant. I'm sorry, but it is the truth.
Have you looked at my inbox? I didn't say they did so publicly. But heck, even right now as I type I have two different issues going on where a conservative is accusing me of being liberal and a liberal is accusing me of protecting that same conservative. What a conundrum!!
As I've said myself countless times. There is wisdom in that, but I'm not sure it applies as well to you as it did to sojo an others who bore that same elephant.
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. I always look for ways to improve my service here, so why don't you PM and share the comments that you've heard. I don't need to know who said them, of course, but it would be helpful to know what was being said.
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We may be talking about two different events then. I was talking about the safehouses closing just recently, like in the last two months. They were actually going to be shut down permanently at that time.
we are talking about different events then. I'm talking about the closing and sooper dooper admin hiding of the safehouse forums. Not just threads.
Originally Posted by PreachersWife2004
It was one of the concerns, probably one of the main concerns. But the biggest problem is that it was an area ripe with fighting, flaming and numerous rule violations. Even closing it down temporarily didn't stop that. Atheists were insulting Christians, Christians were insulting atheists. Simply put, it was not doing anything to God's glory. Why on earth would you ever want that to continue here?
Atheists there were always respectful of me as I was always respectful of them. There was good, high level discussion there that now we have to go to atheist sites for. Is it better that difficult questions are faced among other believers or among unbelievers? I challenge the idea that they can just be ignored in perpetuity.
Originally Posted by PreachersWife2004
Have you looked at my inbox? I didn't say they did so publicly. But heck, even right now as I type I have two different issues going on where a conservative is accusing me of being liberal and a liberal is accusing me of protecting that same conservative. What a conundrum!!
That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. I always look for ways to improve my service here, so why don't you PM and share the comments that you've heard. I don't need to know who said them, of course, but it would be helpful to know what was being said.
I'd rather not. I will say that you are notably more even handed now than you were at one time, at least from my perspective. For that I thank you and commend you. I still have a great deal of trouble seeing how you could ever be mistaken for a liberal though.
My issues with the site and moderation tend to be much more of institutional complaints than specific mod/admin complaints.
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we are talking about different events then. I'm talking about the closing and sooper dooper admin hiding of the safehouse forums. Not just threads.
Gotcha. I was not involved nor aware of that situation and a lot has changed since then.
Atheists there were always respectful of me as I was always respectful of them. There was good, high level discussion there that now we have to go to atheist sites for. Is it better that difficult questions are faced among other believers or among unbelievers? I challenge the idea that they can just be ignored in perpetuity.
That good high level discussion was lost amongst the sea of flames. I used to frequent GA a lot back when I was posting in Theology as well. I'm a pretty hardcore seasoned Christian. I know my way around a bible and I can usually hold my own in an argument. That place gave me nightmares.
That's just MY personal experience with it. Of course, having to mod that area I saw a lot of the bad things that came out of it.
In the interest of full disclosure, I was a mod who was very much in favor of closing it. Would I ever be in favor of reopening such a section? I think under very controlled elements I would be.
I'd rather not. I will say that you are notably more even handed now than you were at one time, at least from my perspective. For that I thank you and commend you. I still have a great deal of trouble seeing how you could ever be mistaken for a liberal though.
I don't think it's being mistaken for a liberal so much as the conservative in question accusing me of being in cahoots with liberals to promote a liberal agenda. I have been accused of being a non-Christian and I have been accused of being a liberal sometimes because of my comments on homosexuality. I believe I sometimes represent a bit of dilemma for these guys because I don't tow the exact line about homosexuality.
I'll be the first to say that when I first came on staff in 2007 I was wet behind the ears and didn't know much about how CF worked. That was the time of open reports and boy did I ever run my mouth!!
Yes, I've learned a great deal over the last two years. I still am learning. It should be a never-ending process.
My issues with the site and moderation tend to be much more of institutional complaints than specific mod/admin complaints.
I get that a lot from smart well-spoken people around here. Those who have specific mod complaints are also generally railing against the system. We're kinda used to it.
And hey, bringing up concerns or suggestions or even complaints is NEVER a bad idea. You might tick some people off in the process (Lord knows I've done so in the past!!) but sometimes that's how change happens here.
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What do you mean by "still stuck"? Did we have a past discussion about that issue?
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No peace among the nations without peace among the religions.
No peace among the religions without dialogue among the religions.
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None of those posts refer to secret rules. They refer to Staff secrecy--mostly about deliberations.
Where did we discuss seekrit rules? Was it someplace public or someplace private?
*sigh*
I don't want to rag on you or have to sweat you. My main point here is that Staff actions ≠ Roolz () violations.
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