hey man, it's a great pleasure debating with you. i'll respond to your post as soon as i am able. i only delay because i spent a great deal of time writing up a reply already but somehow CF logged me out and i lost everything. it might be a day or so before i cool off enough to try again.
hey man, it's a great pleasure debating with you. i'll respond to your post as soon as i am able. i only delay because i spent a great deal of time writing up a reply already but somehow CF logged me out and i lost everything. it might be a day or so before i cool off enough to try again.
thanks for your patience,
Stephen
Oooh, I HATE it when that happens. I wait with bated breath
__________________
...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
We are making good progress, God's Pawn. Great reply.
thank you sir, it's my pleasure discussing these matters with you
I think that you're right, ideally speaking, the reality of purgatory should not be the prime motivator behind our good works. But really, this is no different from any set of laws or rules. You want people to follow rules because the understand the purpose of those rules, NOT because they are simply trying to avoid punishment for breaking them.
yes indeed, i feel sorry for those people who only follow Christ because of the good "fire insurance".
However, just like I (as a high school teacher) have punishments that are not retributory in nature but are meant to correct wrong behavior, so purgatory is not meant to atone for one's sins but rather is the only path to reach the state of heavenly perfection.
i disagree. i believe Christ provided the necessary purification. note the following verses: Titus 2:13-14 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
1 John 1:5-10 5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin. 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
as we see in these verses, Christ is the one who purifies us. there is no mention of a place to where we must go to receive cleansing but rather we read that Christ Himself purifies us (namely His blood in 1 John 1:7)
Really? You believe Christians reach a state of perfect sanctification before death? Then what's all this talk about the sinful nature?
in referencing sinful nature i believe you are refering to Paul's discussion on that in Romans 7 (7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.). here we see the dichotomy, if you will, of the Christian being. one the one side we our "inner being" of verse 22 and then there is the sin that lives still within us (verse 20). so then does this mean that we need purgatory to remove the sin side? i think not, for Paul gives the answer in verses 24-25: "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!" personally, i believe that when our earthly body dies, the sin passes with it; meanwhile our souls continue on, purified by Christ, into the eternal glory of God.
Typically we say that, through Christ, we are forgiven our sins, we are totally accepted by God, but purgatory doesn't have to forgiveness. Its design is to bring us into a state of perfection, not so that we are free from punishment, but so that we are free to enter the divine presence. I'm not sure if I'm explaining the difference properly or not.
i believe that it's the purification of sins that comes first (via Christ's death and resurection). it comes for every single person on earth (1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit) and then as we accept this gift, we are forgiven (Acts 10:43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.)
also, if this is the only way to experiencing divine presence then what shall we say to Galations 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. is this not a form of divine presence?
My first decent thought is that maybe "paradise" is not the same as "heaven." It is a word rarely used in the Bible -- perhaps it indicates something else. Or, perhaps the thief's purgatorial experience would be quite short -- less than the hours remaining that day! What does "time" mean in the next life, anyway? Doesn't Jesus simply mean that the thief would die that day, and soon thereafter would be in heaven? There are a lot of things about this passage that I find unclear. I know these aren't great responses, but they're a place to start...
according to my study Bible, paradise in the OT designated a garden or a forest; while in the NT it refers to a place of bliss and rest between death and resurrection. that doesn't sound much like purgatory to me. and wouldn't that be a little deceiving if Jesus meant a different time scale than what the thief knew and understood?
i disagree. i believe Christ provided the necessary purification. note the following verses: Titus 2:13-14 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
How exactly are we purified? This passage doesn't tell us. Other passages talk about purification through adversity and suffering (Rom. 5:3; 1 Peter 1:7) -- in this we follow the example of Christ (Heb. 2:9-10).
So what does it mean to say that "Jesus Christ... gave himself for us... to purify for himself a people"? Purification would be impossible without his death. Does this also mean that his purification is adequate to accomplish our sanctification automatically, without any additional means of operation? No! (Php. 2:12-13) We are at peace with God (Rom. 5:1) and we partake in the death of Christ (Rom. 6:3) but we have not yet reached his perfection (2 Cor. 3:18).
1 John 1:5-10 5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin. 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
as we see in these verses, Christ is the one who purifies us. there is no mention of a place to where we must go to receive cleansing but rather we read that Christ Himself purifies us (namely His blood in 1 John 1:7)
Even 1 John, with its starkly black-and-white portrayal of the church/world dichotomy, admits that some will "shrink away" upon the return of Christ (2:8). How can they be reconciled to the perfect presence of God without further corrective measures being taken?
in referencing sinful nature i believe you are refering to Paul's discussion on that in Romans 7 ...
That passage is diversely interpreted and while it is perhaps a prime example of the sinful nature still present in man, but others bespeak the same persistent corruption (e.g. 1 Cor. 7:1).
personally, i believe that when our earthly body dies, the sin passes with it; meanwhile our souls continue on, purified by Christ, into the eternal glory of God.
I think this is the crux of the matter. Clearly from the passages I have cited, sinfulness continues among the "purified" and "righteous." You locate the hub of this sin within the body, and therefore, when the earthly body is discarded and the heavenly body is obtained, the sinful nature is destroyed and no more corrective punishment must take place. Believers of purgatory, however, locate the hub of this sin within the part of man in the immortal soul. Thus even after death there is still much to be done!
according to my study Bible, paradise in the OT designated a garden or a forest; while in the NT it refers to a place of bliss and rest between death and resurrection. that doesn't sound much like purgatory to me.
We agree that "paradise" is not intended to describe purgatory.
wouldn't that be a little deceiving if Jesus meant a different time scale than what the thief knew and understood?
If there are no words to accurately describe the experience of time in the future, then it is not deceptive, it is a linguistic tool used to communicate the thief's approaching death and subsequent arrival to the heavenly realm. The Roman Catholic church has, in the past, spoken of purgatory in terms of millions of years, but this seems unnecessary. What if purgatory was only an instant, or what we would think of as a moment? Then Jesus' words are not in tension with it.
__________________
...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
How exactly are we purified? This passage doesn't tell us. Other passages talk about purification through adversity and suffering (Rom. 5:3; 1 Peter 1:7) -- in this we follow the example of Christ (Heb. 2:9-10).
So what does it mean to say that "Jesus Christ... gave himself for us... to purify for himself a people"? Purification would be impossible without his death. Does this also mean that his purification is adequate to accomplish our sanctification automatically, without any additional means of operation? No! (Php. 2:12-13) We are at peace with God (Rom. 5:1) and we partake in the death of Christ (Rom. 6:3) but we have not yet reached his perfection (2 Cor. 3:18).
i fear you only skimmed the verses i posted, let me repost a certain key portion: the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. there is no "do this to be purified", or "after you go through this then....." but rather Christ's blood purifies you. i cannot emphasize any further. correct we are not give a play by play of how we are purified but yet we see that it isn't purgatory but Christ's blood that does it.
as to the verses you referenced: the first 2 (Romans 5:3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance. 1 Peter 1:6-7 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.) are in no way evidence of purgatory. they speak of our present or even past sufferings here on earth, no future tense can be read into those. they don't say anything about suffering after death but that we must suffer while we wait upon the return of Christ.
Hebrews 2:9-10 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. so then, Christ must go through purgatory as well? i would have thought that His death and resurection took care of that. this entire passage speaks only of Christ, we are not mentioned here so i fail to see where purgatory can be inserted.
Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. and you see purgatory where? this is again for the present time here on earth, it makes no mention of doing this after death.
i have nothing to say to the next to but, 2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. again we see a present process. there is no future tense here it is something that is occuring even as Paul writes his letter. it is being done now, not: it will be done later
Even 1 John, with its starkly black-and-white portrayal of the church/world dichotomy, admits that some will "shrink away" upon the return of Christ (2:8). How can they be reconciled to the perfect presence of God without further corrective measures being taken?
the ways of God are indeed mysterious of i have no doubt that He can do His will without the need for purgatory. besides if it is Christ's blood that does it, is there even a need for "further corrective measures"? you seem to think that there is but i fail to see where the Bible states them as necessary. unless of course you are refering to the sufferings mentioned above, yet again i must state that these are for here in this world and in this life, no other means is necessary
That passage is diversely interpreted and while it is perhaps a prime example of the sinful nature still present in man, but others bespeak the same persistent corruption (e.g. 1 Cor. 7:1).
pardon me but um, what does marriage have to do with the sinful nature mentioned in Romans 7? i think you cited the wrong verse!
I think this is the crux of the matter. Clearly from the passages I have cited, sinfulness continues among the "purified" and "righteous." You locate the hub of this sin within the body, and therefore, when the earthly body is discarded and the heavenly body is obtained, the sinful nature is destroyed and no more corrective punishment must take place. Believers of purgatory, however, locate the hub of this sin within the part of man in the immortal soul. Thus even after death there is still much to be done!
i see, well then here is where we disagree. i fail to see however why the location would matter when clearly in the verses i mention indicate that purification is complete. nontheless, i fear that our discussion is coming to a close (which is rather sad for i think we both enjoyed it, yes?) for i fear that we are drawing upon opinions that are more personal than biblical and therefore more or less undebateable.
If there are no words to accurately describe the experience of time in the future, then it is not deceptive, it is a linguistic tool used to communicate the thief's approaching death and subsequent arrival to the heavenly realm. The Roman Catholic church has, in the past, spoken of purgatory in terms of millions of years, but this seems unnecessary. What if purgatory was only an instant, or what we would think of as a moment? Then Jesus' words are not in tension with it.
i hesitate to say this but i fear i must. personally, i have never accepted arguments that play on the possibility of differences in time scales between earthly time and heavenly time. to be perfectly honest, i tend to consider them more as an excuse to keep a theory alive. to back my opinions, i fail to understand why God would set up time in such a way. it seems to me to be deceiving when it could be easily avoided by making far simpler differences. the primary verse used is 2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. which i take as a reference to the fact that God, as the creator of time, is therefore outside of time. as God is not bound by time, why then would He create two time scales that were so different from each other that we would be unable to understand their difference even if Christ Himself were to explain it? my apologies, please forgive my rantings. as you can probably tell this has erked me for some time. please don't hold it against me
i fear you only skimmed the verses i posted, let me repost a certain key portion: the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. there is no "do this to be purified", or "after you go through this then....." but rather Christ's blood purifies you. i cannot emphasize any further. correct we are not give a play by play of how we are purified but yet we see that it isn't purgatory but Christ's blood that does it.
True, but also notice the present tense. It is not complete. The purification continues. So... when does it end?
as to the verses you referenced: the first 2 (Romans 5:3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance. 1 Peter 1:6-7 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.) are in no way evidence of purgatory. they speak of our present or even past sufferings here on earth, no future tense can be read into those. they don't say anything about suffering after death but that we must suffer while we wait upon the return of Christ.
I will be the first to say that nowhere does the NT explicitly teach purgatory. However, it was certainly a belief well-known within the context of ancient Judaism. Thus the idea of progressive purification must be taken within a larger scope. Obviously Christianity did not embrace every Jewish belief. We agree that Jesus' blood plays a role. However, if Jesus' blood "purifies us" from every sin, why is this isn't past tense? Why isn't it "already accomplished"? Why do we still sin? The answer is because, in an important sense, we are still not yet pure. Purgatory is just a word that commits us to full purification, whether in this life or the next. From what I understand, Catholics admit the possibility of "skipping" purgatory, probably only for "saints" and the like. I could be wrong on that one, though.
i have nothing to say to the next to but, 2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. again we see a present process. there is no future tense here it is something that is occuring even as Paul writes his letter. it is being done now, not: it will be done later
For each of these verses, you argue that it is present. My point is exactly that. If it is present, when does the process end? At death? Why? There's no reason to assume it is finished then. The beauty of believing in purification is that the process of sanctification is carried to COMPLETION, and it is not merely interrupted, and God gets whatever you were able to accomplish before death "stopped" what is in fact a critical procedure in reconciling your nature to God's.
the ways of God are indeed mysterious of i have no doubt that He can do His will without the need for purgatory. besides if it is Christ's blood that does it, is there even a need for "further corrective measures"? you seem to think that there is but i fail to see where the Bible states them as necessary. unless of course you are refering to the sufferings mentioned above, yet again i must state that these are for here in this world and in this life, no other means is necessary
I don't see why Christ's blood and purgatory are mutually exclusive. We agree that the blood cleanses, but that doesn't mean that we are yet perfect. How do we become perfect? Through discipline. Purgatory is merely the name for that discipline after death.
pardon me but um, what does marriage have to do with the sinful nature mentioned in Romans 7? i think you cited the wrong verse!
I meant to say 2 Corinthians 7:1, sorry...
i see, well then here is where we disagree. i fail to see however why the location would matter when clearly in the verses i mention indicate that purification is complete. nontheless, i fear that our discussion is coming to a close (which is rather sad for i think we both enjoyed it, yes?) for i fear that we are drawing upon opinions that are more personal than biblical and therefore more or less undebateable.
But I have demonstrated time and time again that the Bible teaches that purification is NOT complete, and furthermore, there is no reason to suppose that death simply ends the process.
i hesitate to say this but i fear i must. personally, i have never accepted arguments that play on the possibility of differences in time scales between earthly time and heavenly time. to be perfectly honest, i tend to consider them more as an excuse to keep a theory alive. to back my opinions, i fail to understand why God would set up time in such a way. it seems to me to be deceiving when it could be easily avoided by making far simpler differences. the primary verse used is 2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. which i take as a reference to the fact that God, as the creator of time, is therefore outside of time. as God is not bound by time, why then would He create two time scales that were so different from each other that we would be unable to understand their difference even if Christ Himself were to explain it? my apologies, please forgive my rantings. as you can probably tell this has erked me for some time. please don't hold it against me
For myself, I don't put much weight in arguments that attempt to generalize from a single instance, occurrence, or example. I agree that my response is incomplete, as I haven't done any research whatsoever, but essentially we're arguing about one small literary detail and I really don't see why this should determine the theological value of purgatory.
Sorry I repeated myself so much on this one. If you think that we've hit a block, feel free not to reply point-by-point
__________________
...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
True, but also notice the present tense. It is not complete. The purification continues. So... when does it end?
I will be the first to say that nowhere does the NT explicitly teach purgatory. However, it was certainly a belief well-known within the context of ancient Judaism. Thus the idea of progressive purification must be taken within a larger scope. Obviously Christianity did not embrace every Jewish belief. We agree that Jesus' blood plays a role. However, if Jesus' blood "purifies us" from every sin, why is this isn't past tense? Why isn't it "already accomplished"? Why do we still sin? The answer is because, in an important sense, we are still not yet pure. Purgatory is just a word that commits us to full purification, whether in this life or the next. From what I understand, Catholics admit the possibility of "skipping" purgatory, probably only for "saints" and the like. I could be wrong on that one, though.
For each of these verses, you argue that it is present. My point is exactly that. If it is present, when does the process end? At death? Why? There's no reason to assume it is finished then. The beauty of believing in purification is that the process of sanctification is carried to COMPLETION, and it is not merely interrupted, and God gets whatever you were able to accomplish before death "stopped" what is in fact a critical procedure in reconciling your nature to God's.
I don't see why Christ's blood and purgatory are mutually exclusive. We agree that the blood cleanses, but that doesn't mean that we are yet perfect. How do we become perfect? Through discipline. Purgatory is merely the name for that discipline after death.
I meant to say 2 Corinthians 7:1, sorry...
But I have demonstrated time and time again that the Bible teaches that purification is NOT complete, and furthermore, there is no reason to suppose that death simply ends the process.
For myself, I don't put much weight in arguments that attempt to generalize from a single instance, occurrence, or example. I agree that my response is incomplete, as I haven't done any research whatsoever, but essentially we're arguing about one small literary detail and I really don't see why this should determine the theological value of purgatory.
Sorry I repeated myself so much on this one. If you think that we've hit a block, feel free not to reply point-by-point
yes indeed, i am afraid that you are correct. we have argued to the best that we both can and it all come down to a difference in interpretation that is not solvable at this point. still, it was fun while it lasted as i'm sure we'd both agree.
There are several things in scripture that have lead me to believe that there is some form of Remedial Punishment in the afterlife, meant for all of us. The amount of remedial punishment is determined by at least 1) how hard our hearts have become towards God and others, 2) how wicked our lifestyles had become, 3) what we did or did not do with the talents (blessings, knowledge, wisdom, money, etc.) that God gave us in this life, and 4) how much suffering we've already endured in this life. God, being both our loving Father and our righteous Judge will take all of these things into consideration in determining what steps are necessary to bring up to repentance, brokeness, and submission to Him, creating in us a right heart. The following are the primary reasons I've come to believe in some form of Remedial Punishment in the afterlife for everyone.
1) Gehenna - Jesus warned of Gehenna, a place of decay and fire. Gehenna was spoken of in Jewish literature as a place of purification. Most people, Jews and Gentiles, were believed to stay in Gehenna only as long as was needed; though some Rabbis debated over whether or not the very wicked would either burn up (inihilaitonism) or continue being punished indefinitely. But for the average person, Gehenna was like Purgatory.
2) Paul spoke of turning a brother over to satan so that his flesh would be destroyed but his spirit saved!
3) Both Jesus and Paul mention aionian "judgment" (kolasis); And kolasis was a Greek word used to specifically speak of remedial punishment as opposed to timoria which was used to specify vindictive punishment.
4) Paul enven speaks affirmingly of baptism for the dead - a practice built around the concept of Gehenna (purgatory).
5) I myself have experienced the awful but liberating judgment of God. A couple of times while in prayer, the Lord has pulled back the self-deception of my heart and revealed just how sinful I am, how twisted my thinkg had become. Though it was aweful, it was also very liberating.
6) The lake of fire and brimstone even speaks of remedial punishment. Note that Rev.10.17 says that this like is in the presence of the Lamb and the presence of the angels. Brimstone means divine fire, not made by man, like lava or lightening. Lava especially smells of sulfur burning, thus sulfur came to be known as brimstone. And sulfur was burnt as incense both for spiritual purification and physical healing. Thus the Lake of fire and brimstone could be interpreted as "the volcanic lake of God's presence and revelation of the Sacrifice of Christ that brings purification and healing!"
7) Scripture also speaks of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison. What was Jesus anointed to preach except "Deliverance for the prisoners!"
These things are some of the reasons that I have come to believe in Remedial Punishment in the afterlife, and Universal Reconciliation. Jesus really does conquer death, hades, and the grave!
Last edited by ShermanN; 26th October 2009 at 05:38 PM.
There are several things in scripture that have lead me to believe that there is some form of Remedial Punishment in the afterlife, meant for all of us. The amount of remedial punishment is determined by at least 1) how hard our hearts have become towards God and others, 2) how wicked our lifestyles had become, 3) what we did or did not do with the talents (blessings, knowledge, wisdom, money, etc.) that God gave us in this life, and 4) how much suffering we've already endured in this life. God, being both our loving Father and our righteous Judge will take all of these things into consideration in determining what steps are necessary to bring up to repentance, brokeness, and submission to Him, creating in us a right heart. The following are the primary reasons I've come to believe in some form of Remedial Punishment in the afterlife for everyone.
1) Gehenna - Jesus warned of Gehenna, a place of decay and fire. Gehenna was spoken of in Jewish literature as a place of purification. Most people, Jews and Gentiles, were believed to stay in Gehenna only as long as was needed; though some Rabbis debated over whether or not the very wicked would either burn up (inihilaitonism) or continue being punished indefinitely. But for the average person, Gehenna was like Purgatory.
2) Paul spoke of turning a brother over to satan so that his flesh would be destroyed but his spirit saved!
3) Both Jesus and Paul mention aionian "judgment" (kolasis); And kolasis was a Greek word used to specifically speak of remedial punishment as opposed to timoria which was used to specify vindictive punishment.
4) Paul enven speaks affirmingly of baptism for the dead - a practice built around the concept of Gehenna (purgatory).
5) I myself have experienced the awful but liberating judgment of God. A couple of times while in prayer, the Lord has pulled back the self-deception of my heart and revealed just how sinful I am, how twisted my thinkg had become. Though it was aweful, it was also very liberating.
6) The lake of fire and brimstone even speaks of remedial punishment. Note that Rev.10.17 says that this like is in the presence of the Lamb and the presence of the angels. Brimstone means divine fire, not made by man, like lava or lightening. Lava especially smells of sulfur burning, thus sulfur came to be known as brimstone. And sulfur was burnt as incense both for spiritual purification and physical healing. Thus the Lake of fire and brimstone could be interpreted as "the volcanic lake of God's presence and revelation of the Sacrifice of Christ that brings purification and healing!"
7) Scripture also speaks of Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison. What was Jesus anointed to preach except "Deliverance for the prisoners!"
These things are some of the reasons that I have come to believe in Remedial Punishment in the afterlife, and Universal Reconciliation. Jesus really does conquer death, hades, and the grave!
this is an interesting post, the only major issue i have at this point is the fact that you state that various characters in the Bible mention various places which could be used to describe purgatory without giving any specific references. if you could please provide these then i'll be in a better possition to comment.
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