Heaven or Hell or

Perhaps, but I think C.S. Louis would disagree. Have you read "The Last Battle." by chance? There is a story in there about a man who served this other God for a very long time but then "God" counts that service to him because he did it with good intentions or something like that.

i understand the fact that purgatory could encourage good deeds/living but is that really the point of Christianity? is that what Jesus taught: good deeds? negative. the deeds should come through faith, not fear of a temporary place of torment (for which i've only ever heard good reasons for its existence without any Biblical evidence).

Christ said that it was His blood that made us clean, not anything related to purgatory. and what of the thief on the cross? Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise." no temporary clensing place is mentioned there.

There's that verse in Php. 2 where Paul exhorts the church to work out their salvation "with fear and trembling." There seems to be an element of fear that inspires a righteous lifestyle.

Seems to me that Jesus generally taught his followers about inner goodness that inspires true outer goodness. Since there is a strong ethical component to his teaching, I don't see how purgatory wouldn't fit.

And is that promise to the thief meant to be universalized, as you have done?

Hmm... Where exactly does Jesus say that his blood makes us clean?

the "fear and trembling" is meant to be toward God, not a place of punishment. "Fear the lord your God" is often seen in the OT and a few times in the NT i think.

ok so you could insert that here, but you could do the same about anything so i wouldn't call that an argument worth making.

is there any objection to this? was the thief in any kind of special situation which would automatically waive him from the need to go through purgatory? surely if God could make a way for this sinner to avoid purgatory then He could do the same for the rest of us. if purgatory is not a necessity, why make all of Christendom go through it? why would God delay the fellowship with us that He's done so much to allow?

Matthew 26:27-28 Then He took the cup, gave thanks, and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins..."

God's Pawn, thanks for your reply. I appreciate your willingness to engage in a rather controversial topic.

Why fear God if there is no threat of reprisal? Fear of God makes no sense unless you believe in real punishment or "discipline" or purification.

You said that Jesus didn't teach "good deeds." He did. My rebuttal stands. Purgatory "fits" with Jesus' teaching.

Judging by all the rhetorical questions, we may conclude that not enough information is given in this passage to disprove purgatory. In other words, I don't feel the need to respond to your questions, but simply to point out that if you put them into statement form, you would be extrapolating beyond the text.

Thanks for providing the citation in full.

So you're saying that a belief in purgatory is incompatible with a belief in atonement? Are you aware that the purpose of purgatory is not to atone for sins, but rather to reach the state of perfection requisite for entrance into the divine presence?

of course and good point made, however i think the fear of God refers more to fear of His awesome power and abilty to whipe us out with but a thought. to fear Him since He has ever right and reason to destroy us for our disobedience and rebellion against Him. it is only through His great and everlasting love that we are still kept alive and we must fear God indeed because we can't just take His love as an excuse to sin and live our own lives.

very good, however i don't think that He taught them to do good deeds so as to make a shorter time in purgatory but rather so that we would be imitating and showing His love to the world.

not incompatible simply unnecessary. i believe that the pains and agonies that we suffer here on earth are sufficient to provide a state perfection.

indeed, for is it not our sins that separate us from God? and is it not Christ's death and resurrection that removed said sins and returned us to a state of perfection? i was under the impression that it was Christ's death and the blood He shed that cleansed us, not suffering in some post-death/pre-paradise world

is there any objection to this? was the thief in any kind of special situation which would automatically waive him from the need to go through purgatory? surely if God could make a way for this sinner to avoid purgatory then He could do the same for the rest of us. if purgatory is not a necessity, why make all of Christendom go through it? why would God delay the fellowship with us that He's done so much to allow?