' Common Argument: Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven (Rev. 21:27) ergo: there is a need to purify The Lord's people in a Purgatory before they can enter paradise.
That particular barrier to Heaven easily explains why Jesus said that second births are a must rather than an option (John 3:3-8) and also explains why Paul said that human beings, as they come from the factory in the Adamic configuration, will not inherit the kingdom of God. (1Cor 15:50)
In order to be suitable for life in Heaven, an Adamic human being has to undergo a second birth, which produces a kind of human being that, from a certain point of view, is somewhat inhuman; viz: not of this earth.
†. John 3:6 . . Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
The advantage of being born of God’s spirit is that the resulting creature is a new kind of being incapable of ever committing even one single sin in either thought, word, or deed.
†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Another advantage of second births is that a creature born of God’s spirit doesn’t share in the guilt of the sins committed by a creature born of dust. No, those earthly sins are the sins of flesh and blood, which, according to 1John 3:9, a being born of God’s spirit never commits.
Born-again Chris-tians are complex creatures: they exist as a sinful creature born of Adam and they simultaneously co-exist as a sinless creature born of God’s spirit. The trick then is to separate those two creatures and allow the one born of God’s spirit to go to Heaven and leave the one born of dust to remain down here on the earth from whence it came.
This process about which I’m posting, is a miraculous surgical procedure, called in the Bible, a “circumcision made without hands”
†. Col 2:10-12. .You have been made complete in him . . and in him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also resurrected with him through faith in the working of God, who resurrected him from the dead.
In a nutshell then, what I’m saying is: a creature born of God’s spirit, one who’s undergone the circumcision made without hands, has no need of a Purgatory because it will never do anything wrong for which it would require purification.
So then, when I cross over to the other side, I will enter paradise just as totally innocent as God's firstborn son because I will no longer have human nature; but rather, I will have the nature of God's own posterity.
†. 2Pet 1:2-4 . . Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the Divine Nature.
Human nature is Man's greatest moral weakness. He will never be spiritual enough to live in close proximity with a holy God while he has it.
†. Rom 7:14 . . For we know that the commandments are spiritual: however, I am but flesh, a slave to obey sin.
†. Rom 7:24-25 . .What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God— through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Common Argument: We rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us (Rom. 5:3-5) ergo: suffering in Purgatory produces endurance, character, hope, and God's love.
People who raise that objection are typically entirely unaware of both the purpose, and the results, of the second births about which Jesus preached in John 3:3-8.
Common Argument: Strive . .for holiness without which no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14).This implies working on holiness not only in this life, but also in the next.
Same problem: ignorance of both the purpose, and the results, of the second births about which Jesus preached in John 3:3-8.
†. Rom 6:11 . . Reckon yourselves to be indeed dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
C.L.I.F.F. /
Last edited by Webers_Home; 11th October 2009 at 02:13 PM.
If youre calvinist as your username seems to imply, then its not surprising you might feel this way...I mean, only the elect are going and we cant change who they are....right ?
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(Pro 14:12 KJV) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
(Pro 16:25 KJV) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
The thing that I find surprising is that Hades or Hell is not the end, I always thought people were judged then sent to Hell. In revelations though everyone comes out of hell and is judged from that point on. Strange.
. RE: In revelations though everyone comes out of hell and is judged from that point on.
Not “everyone” comes out of hades; only the Dead.
The Dead are mentioned four times in Rev 20:11-15 while the Living are not mentioned at all. The reason is: the Living are absolutely in no danger of fire and eternal suffering nor are they in any danger whatsoever of being condemned for their sins.
†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and trust in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from Death into Life.
Note the grammatical tense of Jesus’ have verb. It’s in the present tense rather than future, indicating that all those who heed his message, and trust in God, have eternal life right now— no delay, and no waiting period.
Since eternal life is a kind of life that cannot die; it is therefore impervious to the wages of sin.
†. Rom 6:23 . . For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
From the above information, we can safely deduce that the Dead of Rev 20:11-15 are unfortunate souls who failed to obtain eternal life before crossing over to the other side. As a result, none of their names are in the book of life.
†. John 3:36 . . He who trusts the Son has eternal life; but he who disbelieves the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.
C.L.I.F.F. /
Last edited by Webers_Home; 11th October 2009 at 02:16 PM.
I would definitely allow this, what do you believe to be the benefits and the detriments?
It seems to me that a belief in purgatory would encourage interest in a moral lifestyle, since ultimately we have to partake in the process of perfection. So, however far we get in this life makes the next "limbo" easier.
On the downside, if the church bureaucracy doesn't take a "hands-off" approach, it can be used for purposes of control and manipulation, a la early sixteenth century. Right?
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...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
It seems to me that a belief in purgatory would encourage interest in a moral lifestyle, since ultimately we have to partake in the process of perfection. So, however far we get in this life makes the next "limbo" easier.
On the downside, if the church bureaucracy doesn't take a "hands-off" approach, it can be used for purposes of control and manipulation, a la early sixteenth century. Right?
This is well put. This also makes me wonder if other religions might get you into heaven as well.
. RE: This also makes me wonder if other religions might get you into heaven as well.
That’s a rather odd statement to come from someone labeling themselves a Protestant.
According to the Bible's Christ, the path to Heaven is via the Jews rather than though other races of people like the Arabs and Native Americans, and/or the people of Europe, Polynesia, Indonesia, India, China, and Japan.
†. John 4:22 . .Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Not only is the way to God via the Jews, but it’s via one specific Jew— the lord and master of New Testament Chris-tianity.
†. John 10:7-9 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not heed them. I am the door; if anyone enters through me, he shall be saved
†. John 14:5-7 . . I am the way, and the truth, and the life— no one comes to the Father, but through me.
Ergo: the only way to Heaven is through the Bible’s Christ, and the religion that he founded and heads is New Testament Chris-tianity.
That’s the Gospel buddy, and I highly recommend that you accept it.
†. Mrk 16:15-17 . . Go into all the world and preach the gospel everywhere to everybody. He that believes and is baptized shall be spared; but he who disbelieves shall be damned.
In point of fact, people who disbelieve that Christ’s religion is the only way to Heaven are already damned: no delay and no waiting period.
†. John 3:17-19 . .He who believes in him is not judged; but he who disbelieves has been damned already, because he is not relying upon the name of the only begotten Son of God.
BTW: while we’re on the subject this might be a good time to remind visitors that this is a Christians-only area. All other supporters of non Chris-tian religions and/or philosophies like Islam, Hindu, Atheism, Buddhism, Baha'i, Judaism, and Agnosticism et al, are trespassing.
This is well put. This also makes me wonder if other religions might get you into heaven as well.
An exclusivist Christian response might be that "good deeds" can only be such for those who are reborn in Christ, and thus only Christians can do good in order to shave off the many years of purgatorial pain they are anticipating.
__________________
...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
An exclusivist Christian response might be that "good deeds" can only be such for those who are reborn in Christ, and thus only Christians can do good in order to shave off the many years of purgatorial pain they are anticipating.
Perhaps, but I think C.S. Louis would disagree. Have you read "The Last Battle." by chance? There is a story in there about a man who served this other God for a very long time but then "God" counts that service to him because he did it with good intentions or something like that.
"There is one true Church, the really ancient Church into which are enrolled those who are righteous according to God's ordinance.... In essence, in idea, in origin, in preeminence we say that the ancient Catholic Church is the only Church." - Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (Before 215 AD)
"The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).
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