Denomination-specific TheologyA special subforum where a thread starter can restrict threads to replies by members of a particular denomination only to discuss denomination-specific theology.
What about Luther made him so much more influential than some of his predecessors who left the Catholic Church? Perhaps it was the culture of the early 16th century?
Thanks. I apologize for my mistake regarding Savanorola. I still think the first proto-Reformer of the Catholic Church that has left a continuing legacy is Peter Waldo.
What about Luther made him so much more influential than some of his predecessors who left the Catholic Church? Perhaps it was the culture of the early 16th century?
I think there are probably many factors including, but not limited to the following:
1. The Renaissance. As you have noted, the culture of the early sixteenth century as a whole was considerably different than that of the Middle Ages. There was a growing middle class which meant a weakening of the influence of the upper and ruling classes. There was also a great interest in literacy and in education in general - not just for the clergy and aristocracy, but also for the middle classes.
2. The invention of the printing press. This served to disseminate all forms of literature, not just the Bible. In fact, the Bible was a laggard in terms of being printed and disseminated because it required translation which was actively opposed by the Church.
3. Location, location, location. Unlike Waldo and other early reformers, Luther was fortunately at a distance from Rome and could not be simply caught and silenced.
4. Money, money, money. With the discovery of the New World the economic balance of Europe was highly disrupted. Great riches came pouring in, initially and for a long time through the Spanish Empire. This radially shifted the balance of power in Europe toward Spain. Rome was not unaware of this situation and soon decided to replace the old St. Peter's Basilica with the present one, which was built over a length period of time beginning with a Greek cross plan by Michaelangelo and then subsquently deveoped into the present Latin cross plan. Such a massive undertaking was not inexpensive and even the vast wealth which was flowing into Rome from the devout Spanish monarchy was quite insufficient. The result was the sale of indulgences to fund the work. This developed a deep resentment on the part of the middle classes in countries which were not so blessed with economic plentitude, especially in northern Europe.
5. Corruption and immorality. From the Pope to the various orders within the Catholic church there was much blatant immorality and corruption. VArious reformers such a Fancis and Benedict had attempted to stem the corruption by establishing new orders, but immorality and corruption were deeply rooted within Catholicism.
6. Heresies. Throughout the Middle Ages various errors and heresies had spring up. Some, such as the Albigensian heresy, were eliminated but others such as Mariolotry were allowed to prosper. Various cults of the saints were encouraged along with the revenue-enhancing pilgrimages were encouraged. Rank superstition existed along with Christian faith. One result was the theological shift from faith to works and sacraments as the engine of personal salvation.
7. Hope. This may sound strange, but hope was a large factor in Luther's success. During the Middle Ages there was little or no hope for most people, especially the very large peasant and serf classes. There was no economic hope of escaping the grueling life. There was very limited hope that one might have a better life after death - and that only after suffering miserably for one's sins in Purgatory. With the Renaissance hope began to rise as the middle classes arose and economic prosperity began to trickle through society. Through the doctrine of salvation by Christ alone through faith alone in Him even the rudest peasant could have a sure hope of eternal life with God.
I think there are probably many factors including, but not limited to the following:
1. The Renaissance. As you have noted, the culture of the early sixteenth century as a whole was considerably different than that of the Middle Ages. There was a growing middle class which meant a weakening of the influence of the upper and ruling classes. There was also a great interest in literacy and in education in general - not just for the clergy and aristocracy, but also for the middle classes.
2. The invention of the printing press. This served to disseminate all forms of literature, not just the Bible. In fact, the Bible was a laggard in terms of being printed and disseminated because it required translation which was actively opposed by the Church.
3. Location, location, location. Unlike Waldo and other early reformers, Luther was fortunately at a distance from Rome and could not be simply caught and silenced.
4. Money, money, money. With the discovery of the New World the economic balance of Europe was highly disrupted. Great riches came pouring in, initially and for a long time through the Spanish Empire. This radially shifted the balance of power in Europe toward Spain. Rome was not unaware of this situation and soon decided to replace the old St. Peter's Basilica with the present one, which was built over a length period of time beginning with a Greek cross plan by Michaelangelo and then subsquently deveoped into the present Latin cross plan. Such a massive undertaking was not inexpensive and even the vast wealth which was flowing into Rome from the devout Spanish monarchy was quite insufficient. The result was the sale of indulgences to fund the work. This developed a deep resentment on the part of the middle classes in countries which were not so blessed with economic plentitude, especially in northern Europe.
5. Corruption and immorality. From the Pope to the various orders within the Catholic church there was much blatant immorality and corruption. VArious reformers such a Fancis and Benedict had attempted to stem the corruption by establishing new orders, but immorality and corruption were deeply rooted within Catholicism.
6. Heresies. Throughout the Middle Ages various errors and heresies had spring up. Some, such as the Albigensian heresy, were eliminated but others such as Mariolotry were allowed to prosper. Various cults of the saints were encouraged along with the revenue-enhancing pilgrimages were encouraged. Rank superstition existed along with Christian faith. One result was the theological shift from faith to works and sacraments as the engine of personal salvation.
7. Hope. This may sound strange, but hope was a large factor in Luther's success. During the Middle Ages there was little or no hope for most people, especially the very large peasant and serf classes. There was no economic hope of escaping the grueling life. There was very limited hope that one might have a better life after death - and that only after suffering miserably for one's sins in Purgatory. With the Renaissance hope began to rise as the middle classes arose and economic prosperity began to trickle through society. Through the doctrine of salvation by Christ alone through faith alone in Him even the rudest peasant could have a sure hope of eternal life with God.
I agree with some of this, and I think a lot of it had to do with some of the clergy's particular immorality of the time.
I disagree on the following:
The Catholic Church did not forbid translations of the Bible as it had been involved for centuries in translating Bibles into the vernacular of various cultures. Translation abuse was occurring however, and some shoddy translating was what they were trying to stop. It is one of those modern Fundamentalist myths that the Catholic Church suppressed the Bible rather than faulty translations.
"Mariolatry" is probably code for Marian devotion which isn't a heresy, and long predates the Reformation by at least 1000 years. So I don't think that scared anyone away.
The doctrine of Purgatory also predates the Reformation by centuries, so I don't think it was that which scared anyone off.
Also, the sacramental life was there from the beginning, particularly baptism and Eucharist, so that would not have scared anyone off either.
Thank you for your response. I offer my response, as follows:
Originally Posted by MrPolo
I agree with some of this, and I think a lot of it had to do with some of the clergy's particular immorality of the time.
I disagree on the following:
Originally Posted by MrPolo
The Catholic Church did not forbid translations of the Bible as it had been involved for centuries in translating Bibles into the vernacular of various cultures. Translation abuse was occurring however, and some shoddy translating was what they were trying to stop. It is one of those modern Fundamentalist myths that the Catholic Church suppressed the Bible rather than faulty translations.
Although the Catholic Church did some translation of the Bible, as you noted, Jerome's Latin Vulgate was almost universally used as Latin was the language of the mass until Vatican II. Until Vatican II the laity were strongly discouraged from reading the Bible lest they develop interpretations counter to Catholic theology. The reality is that the Bible was almost universally restricted to those in the clergy and religious orders. It should also be noted that literacy rates were exceedingly low at the time, but increasing among the growing middle class.
Originally Posted by MrPolo
"Mariolatry" is probably code for Marian devotion which isn't a heresy, and long predates the Reformation by at least 1000 years. So I don't think that scared anyone away.
I did not mean Marian devotion. I meant the worship of Mary as a person of the Trinity. There is a very significant difference between the two. There was a great deal of superstition regarding the Virgin Mary and it was no mere coincidence that many English cathedrals retain large chapels entirely devoted to her, usually directly behind the high altar. There was much superstition regarding statues and relics with much of it related to Mary.
Originally Posted by MrPolo
The doctrine of Purgatory also predates the Reformation by centuries, so I don't think it was that which scared anyone off.
It was not the doctrine of Purgatory per se, but the extreme interpretation of it as being a place of torment and punishment which would last centuries if not millennia before the Christian might be allowed into heaven. This view of Purgatory which remained largely intact until Vatican II has been vastly modified and softened since then.
Originally Posted by MrPolo
Also, the sacramental life was there from the beginning, particularly baptism and Eucharist, so that would not have scared anyone off either.
Again, it is not the sacramental life that I am addressing. After all, Luther remained a sacarmentalist until his death. It is the abuses of the doctrines surrounding the sacraments that helped form the milieu leading to Luther's Reformation. In England, for example, it was a crime punishable by death for a person not to fix his gaze at the host as the priest transformed it from bread into literal flesh.
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