We live in a world of sin, and a large number of people not only sin, but they like sinning, and not only that, but their eye's and ear's don't work. So Homosexuality, which is a sin, is common and accepted by anyone who accepts sin and love's it. I think anyone who tell's gay people they can enter heaven without first repenting of their homosexual lifestyle is doing a HUMONGOUS diservice to the gay person. They will NOT be able to enter heaven unless they repent and accept Christ. You CAN love them, but DON'T tell them they can enter heaven without repenting.
I agree... its also a huge disservice to themselves as well as to the homosexual.... there are many here that not only want to try and justify the homosexual lifestyle as not being sinful, but they go on to wrongly and sinfully encourage others to engage in that lifestyle...
Romans 1:32 (ESV) Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
MacArthur notes
"The absolute pit of wickedness is reached, Paul says, when those who are themselves involved in evils also give hearty approval to others who practice them. To justify one’s own sin is wicked enough, but to approve and encourage others to sin is immeasurably worse. Even the best of societies have had those within them who were blatantly wicked and perverse. But a society that openly condones and defends such evils as sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, and the rest has reached the deepest level of corruption. Many of the most socially advanced societies of our own day are in that category. Sexually promiscuous celebrities are glamorized and the rights of homosexuals are ardently defended. These acts of sin are in direct contradiction to the revealed will of God.
A certain species of ants in Africa builds its nests in deep subterranean tunnels, where its young and its queen live. Although they may be great distances from the nest foraging for food, worker ants of that species are able to sense when the queen is being molested and they become extremely nervous and uncoordinated. If she is killed, they become frantic and rush around aimlessly until they die.
What better illustration could there be of fallen man. Even in his sinful rejection and rebellion, he cannot function properly apart from God and is destined only for death." (Commentary on Romans)
blessings,
ken
__________________ "The venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me and relieve me from the nonsense of surviving mortals." Samuel Davies 1723-1761
"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes." Erasumus 1466-1536
That homosexuality is a sin and an abomination to God has been patently demonstrated already and sufficiently so.
It's a sin like any other. As to the fact that some are tempted with this sin while others aren't shouldn't be considered unusual - everyone is tempted with certain sins that others aren't. Why that is, I don't know. But one tempted with anger might not be tempted necessarily with lust. Paul admited his temptation to covetousness, singling it out as his primary temptation (in not listing others).
We shouldn't be surprised at the rise in those now admitting to the temptation to homosexual sin, given society's shift in that direction. But I seriously doubt the relative percentages of those given to this particular sin in today's society varies much from any other society or time.
__________________ Psalm 57:11 Be exalted, O God, above the heavens! Let your glory be over all the earth!
Those of you who codemns homosexuality are brainwashed and do not even realize it. No wonder the world is full of hate.
Those of you who do not condemn homosexuality are brainwashed and do not even realize it. No wonder the world is full of hate.
blessings,
ken
__________________ "The venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me and relieve me from the nonsense of surviving mortals." Samuel Davies 1723-1761
"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes." Erasumus 1466-1536
"The absolute pit of wickedness is reached, Paul says, when those who are themselves involved in evils also give hearty approval to others who practice them. To justify one’s own sin is wicked enough, but to approve and encourage others to sin is immeasurably worse. Even the best of societies have had those within them who were blatantly wicked and perverse. But a society that openly condones and defends such evils as sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, and the rest has reached the deepest level of corruption. Many of the most socially advanced societies of our own day are in that category.
Fascinating quote. At the danger of veering off-topic, however, I would challenge the idea that sexual sin is the deepest level of depravity. It seems to me that our proclivities and foibles in respect of sexual gratification are a minor matter; in general, they harm no-one. When they do, hetero- or homo-sexual, they deserve condemnation irrespective of sexuality.
No, the real depravity is in societies that think they can justify wealth while others starve. At any one point in time, economics is a zero-sum game. What you have, others lack, and die of that lack. This is the challenge of our age, not recreational sex or loving relationships that do not fit a traditional Christian straitlaced straitjacket.
Best wishes, 2RM.
__________________ Philosophy is questions that may never be answered: Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
Anon, quoted in 'Breaking the Spell', by Daniel Dennet.
I agree... its also a huge disservice to themselves as well as to the homosexual.... there are many here that not only want to try and justify the homosexual lifestyle as not being sinful, but they go on to wrongly and sinfully encourage others to engage in that lifestyle...
Romans 1:32 (ESV) Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
MacArthur notes
"The absolute pit of wickedness is reached, Paul says, when those who are themselves involved in evils also give hearty approval to others who practice them. To justify one’s own sin is wicked enough, but to approve and encourage others to sin is immeasurably worse. Even the best of societies have had those within them who were blatantly wicked and perverse. But a society that openly condones and defends such evils as sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, and the rest has reached the deepest level of corruption. Many of the most socially advanced societies of our own day are in that category. Sexually promiscuous celebrities are glamorized and the rights of homosexuals are ardently defended. These acts of sin are in direct contradiction to the revealed will of God.
A certain species of ants in Africa builds its nests in deep subterranean tunnels, where its young and its queen live. Although they may be great distances from the nest foraging for food, worker ants of that species are able to sense when the queen is being molested and they become extremely nervous and uncoordinated. If she is killed, they become frantic and rush around aimlessly until they die.
What better illustration could there be of fallen man. Even in his sinful rejection and rebellion, he cannot function properly apart from God and is destined only for death." (Commentary on Romans)
blessings,
ken
When it comes to the subject of "homosexual acts" it often seems as if a lot of people believe that the letter to the Romans consists of only three verses:
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Romans 1:26-27,32
They seem to forget the fact that Paul was well educated in both Jewish and Greco-Roman culture, that he was acquainted with the writings of the great philosophers and theologians of both traditions, and knew the latest in Jewish trends -- the apocalyptic writing genre. But these are all extra-Biblical facts that they perhaps never learned.
On the other hand, anyone who can read can see that these are only three verses from a much more complex thought. That there are verses before, after, and in-between these verses that give a fuller picture of what Paul was trying to say:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Romans 1:18-2:3
The activity usually interpreted simply as "homosexual acts" is not the only sin mentioned in this passage, nor even the one the most verbage is spent on. That second would be rejecting God, idolatry in its purest form, blaspheming the Spirit in its (spiritually) most deadly, and the root of all other sins in all its forms, even the mildest.
Neither is the purpose of the passage to condemn the sinner. It is to confront those who judge others. Everyone is guilty of at least some of the sins on that list, and with sin, to fail in one area is the same as failing in all areas. And everyone fails somewhere. "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God." (Romans 3:23). And so to condemn another person for his sins is to call the same judgment down upon oneself.
The rest of the letter teaches that there is a better way than this Spiritual MAD-ness (Mutually Assured Destruction). A way which involves love and mercy from God, and tolerence and acceptance from us.
Fascinating quote. At the danger of veering off-topic, however, I would challenge the idea that sexual sin is the deepest level of depravity. It seems to me that our proclivities and foibles in respect of sexual gratification are a minor matter; in general, they harm no-one. When they do, hetero- or homo-sexual, they deserve condemnation irrespective of sexuality.
No, the real depravity is in societies that think they can justify wealth while others starve. At any one point in time, economics is a zero-sum game. What you have, others lack, and die of that lack. This is the challenge of our age, not recreational sex or loving relationships that do not fit a traditional Christian straitlaced straitjacket.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Hmmm.... though sexual sin (which goes above and beyond the "minor" proclivities you assert), and in particular homosexual sin - being a barometer of a society's overall level of self-indulgence - it seems to me such levels of self-indulgence at least run parallel to other "social" ills, and might in fact be one and the same, just different in their manifestation.
I think your attempt to demonize "wealthy" nations while others starve is not only off-topic, but a gross and improper generalization to boot. That one nation, or one person is wealthy while another nation or person is starving is no warrant for saying the one is responsible for the other. Indeed, quite the contrary.
America, for example, a very wealthy nation (for yet awile anyway ), gives more charity, and food to starving nations of the world than any other nation in the world does. Indeed, it is estimated that were America's "bread basket" - our midwest farms to fail, vast millions would starve who today depend on regular shipments of corn and wheat (to name just a couple crops) for their daily subsistence. Being wealthy is no sin, though not helping the poor is. And America, to continue to use their example, is neither responsible for the conditions that create much of the worlds poverty and starvation, nor are we guilty for not doing our fair share in trying to alleviate those problems.
And economics is not the "zero sum" game you assert, for any economy is as much dependent on, and a function of intelligence and ideas, energy, and productivity as it is finite resources. Indeed, many of today's "resources" are not tangible at all - but intangible, ideas, concepts, etc. Bill Gates, for example, created his vast wealth on an idea, a software program - which ANYONE with his timing, ability, and drive could have done as well - Steve Jobs, being a notable example. So a "zero sum" economy is simply not reality.
"...and now back to our regularly scheduled programming..."
__________________ Psalm 57:11 Be exalted, O God, above the heavens! Let your glory be over all the earth!
these are only three verses from a much more complex thought.
Agreed
Originally Posted by OllieFranz
Neither is the purpose of the passage to condemn the sinner.
It is admittedly to describe the wrath (ie, the sentence on condemnation) of God on all such.
To think that Paul has done wrong by describing this wrath would be self-contradictory of Paul. So to conclude that we have done wrong by describing this wrath would also be contradictory of Paul.
That's not Paul's point in Romans 2. Paul's point is that we do not escape God's wrath either by lip service announcements of God's wrath.
Nobody does. We've found a path out of our condemnation, though. Should we allow others to deny they're on that same path?
__________________ "... not an unconcerned sitting of God in heaven, from which He merely observes the things that are done in the world; but that all-active and all-concerned seatedness on His throne above, by which He governs the world which He Himself hath made." John Calvin
To us, O LORD, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you.
I want to apologize....I'm sorry for the post...I could have expressed it in a more sensitive or constructive way..
I was upset about the pain homosexuals go through because of the condemnation upon them, especially from Christians. I am very hurt for what they have to go through and I just wish they receive more love and acceptance. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin and I wish some homosexuals believe it as well.
I know many believe homosexuality is a sin and that there's no way around that because the bible said so. For some, that is enough justification because God inspired the words that are written. The only thing I can do is accept the fact that this will remain so no matter what. Deep down in my heart I am extremely saddened by the label of sin that is attached to homosexuality. Furthermore, I am filled with so much hurt to know that others are in pain by this label.
I know the diagreements will always remain. There was just so much tension within me that I wanted to express them in this thread. Thank you for reading.
), gives more charity, and food to starving nations of the world than any other nation in the world does. Indeed, it is estimated that were America's "bread basket" - our midwest farms to fail, vast millions would starve who today depend on regular shipments of corn and wheat (to name just a couple crops) for their daily subsistence. Being wealthy is no sin, though not helping the poor is. And America, to continue to use their example, is neither responsible for the conditions that create much of the worlds poverty and starvation, nor are we guilty for not doing our fair share in trying to alleviate those problems.
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