Question

acorn_777 · #1 6th October 2009, 01:59 AM

If I am Baptist and decided to start attending a Catholic Church, but keep my Baptist values of praying for forgiveness to God directly, while also going to confession and all the Catholic protocol; would I still be saved.

I have heard some Baptist say that Catholics may go to hell because they don't have a personal relationship with God directly, but with the hierarchy of the church.

Thanks. Just curious.

Wondering60 · #2 6th October 2009, 04:15 AM

I was raised a So. Baptist, although I don't consider myself one now, and back when I lived in the US I used to attend a Catholic church with my girlfriend. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the services, special music, sermons, etc.

Because I wasn't Catholic I couldn't participate in certain elements of the Catholic experience like taking communion, going to confession, etc. But I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything. I didn't really want to do any of those things anyway unless I made a decision later to formally become a Catholic.

Anyway, I enjoyed going to the church and I liked the people there. They were good Christian people.

Mike555444 · #3 6th October 2009, 08:12 AM

I give you this scriptures with love and peace:

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

There is only one way to heaven... through Jesus Christ

mlqurgw · #4 6th October 2009, 08:37 AM

(1Co 15:33) Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals."

Be careful who you surround yourself with. They will always influence you and slowly turn you to their way. That applies to every aspect of life.

Lazerboy · #5 6th October 2009, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by acorn_777

If I am Baptist and decided to start attending a Catholic Church, but keep my Baptist values of praying for forgiveness to God directly, while also going to confession and all the Catholic protocol; would I still be saved.

I have heard some Baptist say that Catholics may go to hell because they don't have a personal relationship with God directly, but with the hierarchy of the church.

Thanks. Just curious.

Any Catholic who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is saved from hell. To say other wise is to believe in salvation by works, which is not biblically correct.

One thing I am curious about, acorn, why the desire to go to the Catholic church...?

LiveInSpirit · #6 6th October 2009, 05:17 PM

I imagine any Bible loving Christian would find the Catholic church and their members a bit unsatisfying.

I am constantly feeding on the Word of God and I have been told that getting a good "Biblical meal" at a Catholic church can be a challenge.

PrincetonGuy · #7 11th October 2009, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Lazerboy

Any Catholic who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is saved from hell. To say other wise is to believe in salvation by works, which is not biblically correct.

At the same time, I should state that I do not personally believe the Catholic church to be a Christian church. I say this because of their insistence in the necessity of works (such as confession, baptism, communion, etc.) for salvation.

One thing I am curious about, acorn, why the desire to go to the Catholic church...?

The Roman Catholic Church does NOT teach salvation by works; they teach salvation by grace through faith,

Eph. 2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9. it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. (New American Bible; Roman Catholic)

Confession, baptism, communion, etc., are not works. Let us look at water baptism, for an example.

The Roman Catholic Church and the very large majority of Christians today believe that water baptism is efficacious for salvation; that is, they believe that water baptism is a constituent part of the grace of God by which we are saved through faith. Grace is the dynamic of God by which He saves us from sin and its consequences through our faith in Christ. Water baptism in the Old Testament and rabbinic tradition is very closely associated with cleansing from sin.

This doctrine was held by all of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers whom it pleased God to use to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity and to establish the New Testament Canon based upon their theological views. Indeed, the most prominent of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers wrote that anyone who denied that the grace of God is conferred upon believers in Christ through water baptism is a “heretic.” No responsible Christians, however, have ever taught or believed that water baptism is a work of the Law or that Christians are saved by keeping any of the works of the Law.

Baptist scholars who believe that water baptism is efficacious for salvation believe that the grace of God is conferred upon believers in Christ through water baptism. Other Baptist scholars believe that the Apostle Peter explicitly taught that water baptism saves us (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:18-22) but that Peter was mistaken. Since most Baptist scholars are employed by institutions that would terminate their employment if they publicly shared such views, most Baptist scholars holding these views are very discrete in expressing them. As the chairman of the department of religion in one institution put it to me privately, “Please do not be under the impression that my personal theology is reflected in what I write and teach.”

My personal belief is that the grace of God is conferred upon believers in Christ independently of water baptism and that water baptism by immersion should, when reasonable, follow one’s confession of faith in Christ. To argue this point of view exclusively from the Bible, however, is extremely difficult without interpreting the Scriptures in a manner vastly different than they were understood to teach for the first 1,500 years of the Christian faith. And let us not forget, that the meaning of Paul’s words addressed to the church in Ephesus is totally independent of modern concepts and theologies. Paul was not writing to today’s church at large; he was writing to a specific group of Christians in a specific historical and cultural setting. That setting was one in which circumcision was a very important part of the Old Testament covenant of Law that in the Jewish mind separated Jews from Gentiles. The earliest Christians were all Jews and Christianity was understood by them to be a sect of Judaism. Therefore it was very difficult for them to accept the idea that an uncircumcised Gentile could be a Christian no matter how much he believed in Jesus. And although circumcision was at the forefront in the issue of the need, in the minds of very many first century Christians, to perform the works of the Law to be a good Jew of the Christian sect, it was only the chief focal point of the issue. Paul, especially in his epistles to the Romans, Galatians, and the Ephesians, labored to convey the truth that one need not be circumcised to be a good Christian and that the keeping of the Law was not what justifies and saves a man, but that a man is saved by grace through faith rather than by the works of the Law. And, of course, confession, baptism, communion, etc., have absolutely nothing to do with the works of the Law.

Bro_Sam · #8 11th October 2009, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by [COLOR=black

PrincetonGuy;53178255]The Roman Catholic Church does NOT teach salvation by works; they teach salvation by grace through faith

[/color]

Are you serious???

Ask a Catholic what he has to do to keep from "falling out of a state of grace".

PrincetonGuy · #9 12th October 2009, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bro_Sam

[/color]

Are you serious???

Ask a Catholic what he has to do to keep from "falling out of a state of grace".

Yes, of course I am serious. As for asking a Roman Catholic what he has to do to keep from falling from grace, if he has a fairly good knowledge of the Bible, he will quote Heb. 10:26-31,

26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

And Heb. 6:4-8,

4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

He will also quote from the words of Jesus in the Gospel According to John,

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;”

John 15:4. “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”

John 15:6. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”

John 15:10. “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”

John 15:16. “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”

He will also quote verses such as,

Col. 1:21-23. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, {engaged} in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

He will even quote John 10:27-29,

27. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father's hand.

Here, of course, he will remind me of the Greek tenses that Jesus used and how they prove that Jesus was teaching the conditional salvation of the believer. Indeed, they prove it so extremely clearly that for 1,500 years this passage was used as a warning to those who might neglect their salvation and the conditions for keeping it.

The Roman Catholic Church did not stray away from the teaching of Jesus, the Apostle Paul, and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrew—that church remained faithful to their teaching and the teaching of the many Ante-Nicene Church Fathers who also explicitly taught the conditional salvation of the believer. Indeed, the doctrines of eternal security and the perseverance of the saints were not even conceived until the 16th century when they came into being as a bi-product of a new and seriously incorrect understanding of the sovereignty of God.

It is easy for Calvinistic Baptists to bash the Roman Catholic Church for teaching contrary to the teachings of John Calvin, but when they bash them for teaching conditional security, they are merely displaying the fact that their belief system is a 16th century concoction that is refuted by the Scriptures at every turn.

I am not a Roman Catholic and I have never been one, and when I on occasion go to a mass in a Roman Catholic Church I seldom get much out of it, but some other Baptists do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, and the differences between Roman Catholic doctrine and multitude of varying doctrines taught in Baptist churches may serve as a catalyst to cause acorn 777 to search the Scriptures for the truth. I have been a Baptist for many years, but attending non-Baptist churches of many different denominations has helped me to learn the roots of my beliefs and to separate the chaff from the wheat.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

DeaconDean · #10 12th October 2009, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by PrincetonGuy

Yes, of course I am serious. As for asking a Roman Catholic what he has to do to keep from falling from grace, if he has a fairly good knowledge of the Bible, he will quote Heb. 10:26-31,

26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

And Heb. 6:4-8,

4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

He will also quote from the words of Jesus in the Gospel According to John,

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;”

John 15:4. “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”

John 15:6. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”

John 15:10. “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”

John 15:16. “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”

He will also quote verses such as,

Col. 1:21-23. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, {engaged} in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

He will even quote John 10:27-29,

27. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father's hand.

Here, of course, he will remind me of the Greek tenses that Jesus used and how they prove that Jesus was teaching the conditional salvation of the believer. Indeed, they prove it so extremely clearly that for 1,500 years this passage was used as a warning to those who might neglect their salvation and the conditions for keeping it.

The Roman Catholic Church did not stray away from the teaching of Jesus, the Apostle Paul, and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrew—that church remained faithful to their teaching and the teaching of the many Ante-Nicene Church Fathers who also explicitly taught the conditional salvation of the believer. Indeed, the doctrines of eternal security and the perseverance of the saints were not even conceived until the 16th century when they came into being as a bi-product of a new and seriously incorrect understanding of the sovereignty of God.

It is easy for Calvinistic Baptists to bash the Roman Catholic Church for teaching contrary to the teachings of John Calvin, but when they bash them for teaching conditional security, they are merely displaying the fact that their belief system is a 16th century concoction that is refuted by the Scriptures at every turn.

I am not a Roman Catholic and I have never been one, and when I on occasion go to a mass in a Roman Catholic Church I seldom get much out of it, but some other Baptists do. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, and the differences between Roman Catholic doctrine and multitude of varying doctrines taught in Baptist churches may serve as a catalyst to cause acorn 777 to search the Scriptures for the truth. I have been a Baptist for many years, but attending non-Baptist churches of many different denominations has helped me to learn the roots of my beliefs and to separate the chaff from the wheat.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

Perhaps you care to explain to me how it is that your ultimate salvation depends on the works that you do. That is, according to the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 7.

God Bless

Till all are one.

P.S.: WB.