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Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.

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  #21  
Old 6th October 2009, 06:12 PM
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Laconicstudent,

Free will implies self-propulsion for reasons stated in my post #10. If an atheist denies self-propulsion (viz. "all reality is inert"), he denies free will. Which is fine if that's what he intends. But if he acknowledges elsewhere that free will exists, his world view is hopelessly self-contradictory.

Until you seriously address this problem, the majority of your comments don't have much weight in this discussion.
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Last edited by JAL; 6th October 2009 at 06:22 PM.
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  #22  
Old 6th October 2009, 06:21 PM
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Laconicstudent,

You made several statements about the brain. Irrelevant, for two reasons. First, if the brain consists of inert matter, you’re only pushing the problem back one step further. I myself already mentioned the brain in my post #10. Secondly, please don’t assume that I deny the role of the brain in human consciousness and free choice. Allow me to explain. The soul is a tangible substance in my view, and a motion within that soul is an act of thought. The function of the brain, as I understand it, is to organize our currents of thought, helping them to flow in directions conducive to intelligent reasoning, accurate sensory perception, and emotional well-being.
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  #23  
Old 6th October 2009, 06:28 PM
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That is philosophy, not science. Living bodies are not totally inert. Comparing them to rocks and food is incorrect.


We, unlike truly inert matter, are characterized by ongoing biochemical processes. You can postulate a soul, but you can't prove a soul exists, since modern science considers the brain to be capable of originating the entirety of our mental activity.


The brain isn't inert. It is characterized by cells that are metabolizing, some dividing, protein synthesis, polarization and action potentials to name a few.
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  #24  
Old 6th October 2009, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by laconicstudent
If you take an Anatomy or Animal Biology class, you'll learn the answer to that question.
Nope. The principles taught in these classes are self-contradictory if they imagine that inert substance allows for free will. I would be quite happy with these classes - if happened to be a person who didn't believe in free will.

No, because your brain has enough capacity to be self-referencing. Your neurons fire, and that is cognition. When someone is engaging in logical thinking there is increased neural activity in the frontal lobe of your Cerebrum, hence thought is physically based.
...So can modern neurology and psychology. Emotions have a physical basis.

"State anger and prefrontal brain activity: Evidence that insult-related relative left-prefrontal activation is associated with experienced anger and aggression."
Harmon-Jones, Eddie and Sigelman, Johnathan. U Wisconsin, Dept of Psychology. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol. 80(5) May, 2001. pp. 797-803
Well, I'm certainly going to agree that thought is physically based as I don't believe in intangible substances such as "spirit".


The concept of a soul is philosophy, it doesn't have a basis in actual science.
The concept of an atom was devised as a philosphy 2500 years ago. When people finally started pointing out that it best explains observed data, it became a component of science textbooks.

But there isn't any evidence of the soul's existence. We have evidence of the atom's existence, however, because we can preform experiments that directly support the hypothesis of atomic theory.
You're just ignoring the evidence I've provided. Kind a like many YECs often do.

You have empirical data from a scientific study that concludes that human function and cognition cannot be entirely supported by the physical structure of the brain?
Freely willed motility cannot be defined in terms of inert matter. That's a contradiction in terms.

No. They aren't lifeforms, they don't have a nervous system. It is absurd to be comparing processed substances like sandwiches, which are nothing more then collections of organic molecules and rocks which are minerals in solid state to Biota.
I'm just working from atheistic assumptions. THEY say that a rock is inert. Fine. But the human entity is self-propelling. That discrepancy needs to be accounted for, and the most cogent explanation is a human soul (defined most simply as a self-propelling tangible substance).

In summary, your philosophy is quite Platonic, but not scientific.
Challenging the ubiquity of inertia based on observed data is indeed a scientific enterprise.
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  #25  
Old 6th October 2009, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by laconicstudent View Post
We, unlike truly inert matter, are characterized by ongoing biochemical processes. You can postulate a soul, but you can't prove a soul exists, since modern science considers the brain to be capable of originating the entirety of our mental activity.
I can't even "prove" that gravity exists. I can only provide you evidence. The words in bold are authoritarian. Apparently, this authority supersedes the law of non-contradiction on which basis I challenged its conclusions.

The brain isn't inert. It is characterized by cells that are metabolizing, some dividing, protein synthesis, polarization and action potentials to name a few.
That which is composed of inert matter is inert matter. If it isn't inert, then the textbooks should take note of the fact that human physiology and motility are not a function of ordinary physical laws. Those laws are based on inert matter.

Most atheists define a miracle as a violation of the laws of ordinary physics. If the brain (derived from the inert sandwich) is no longer inert, you're talking about a miraculous transition for starters and then, to boot, miraculous behavior for the long haul.
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  #26  
Old 6th October 2009, 06:50 PM
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If brain matter isn't inert, if it is self-propelling then we can hope to produce cars without the need for fuel or fuel-based energy sources. Funny I don't see much research being done in that area.

I maintain:
(1) The brain is inert.
(2) The souls is self-propelling.
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  #27  
Old 6th October 2009, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JAL View Post
Nope. The principles taught in these classes are self-contradictory if they imagine that inert substance allows for free will. I would be quite happy with these classes - if happened to be a person who didn't believe in free will.
They don't teach that living matter is inert. Again, all your answers are answered in basic science classes. You are making incorrect assumptions

Originally Posted by JAL View Post
The concept of an atom was devised as a philosphy 2500 years ago. When people finally started pointing out that it best explains observed data, it became a component of science textbooks.
I don't understand, what is your point?

Originally Posted by JAL View Post
You're just ignoring the evidence I've provided. Kind a like many YECs often do.
You haven't provided any. You've provided a logical progression based on an incorrect assumption that living tissue is inert.

Originally Posted by JAL View Post
Freely willed motility cannot be defined in terms of inert matter. That's a contradiction in terms.
Again. It isn't inert.

Originally Posted by JAL View Post
I'm just working from atheistic assumptions. THEY say that a rock is inert. Fine. But the human entity is self-propelling.
That is because there is a qualitative difference between humans and a rock that you are ignoring

Originally Posted by JAL View Post
That discrepancy needs to be accounted for
It is.

Originally Posted by JAL View Post
and the most cogent explanation is a human soul (defined most simply as a self-propelling tangible substance).
Wrong, the most logical assumption is that our bodies contain a large number of self-perpetuating biochemical systems.

Originally Posted by JAL View Post
Challenging the ubiquity of inertia based on observed data is indeed a scientific enterprise.
But you don't have any data.




Originally Posted by JAL View Post
I can't even "prove" that gravity exists. I can only provide you evidence. The words in bold are authoritarian. Apparently, this authority supersedes the law of non-contradiction on which basis I challenged its conclusions.
You are correct. Gravity is a theory. I said "Science Considers". As is it is far more logical that all of our personality derives from the brain, not partly from a non-corporeal supposed thing called a "soul". There is no direct proof of the soul, so it would be bad logic to suppose it. It is far more logical to assume the brain is the origin of it all rather then inventing additional concepts to explain.

Originally Posted by JAL View Post
That which is composed of inert matter is inert matter. If it isn't inert, then the textbooks should take note of the fact that human physiology and motility are not a function of ordinary physical laws. Those laws are based on inert matter.
But they are. You are trying to argue Biochemistry but clearly don't understand it. If you took a biology class, they would explain this to you.

Originally Posted by JAL View Post
Most atheists define a miracle as a violation of the laws of ordinary physics. If the brain (derived from the inert sandwich) is no longer inert, you're talking about a miraculous transition for starters and then, to boot, miraculous behavior for the long haul.
What I said above. If you would condescend to take a college level biology course, this wouldn't be so mysterious to you.
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  #28  
Old 6th October 2009, 06:56 PM
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By the way, your claims of "That's not science" are shallow for the simple reason that there's no need to call it a "soul". Take a car known to be comprised of inert substance. Observe the car. If your observations establish that the car is definitely self-propelling, you basically have two choices.
(1) Abandon your assumption that all matter is inert.
(2) Postulate that a self-propelling substance is now within the car.
I'm not being dogmatic here. I'm perfectly content with the atheist who goes with #1, although I've been proposing #2 because ordinary matter does seem to be inert, according to most observations.
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  #29  
Old 6th October 2009, 06:59 PM
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If living tissue isn't inert, that my post #26 is still relevant. I said:


If brain matter isn't inert, if it is self-propelling then we can hope to produce cars without the need for fuel or fuel-based energy sources. Funny I don't see much research being done in that area.

I maintain:
(1) The brain is inert.
(2) The soul is self-propelling.

So why hasn't anyone proposed a self-propellingly energized infrastructure for civilization? Why isn't that being researched, if modern science is teaching that living tissue is not inert?
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  #30  
Old 6th October 2009, 07:04 PM
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...not partly from a non-corporeal supposed thing called a "soul".
But I'm not proposing a non-corporeal soul. Are you sure that you are reading me correctly?

There is no direct proof of the soul, so it would be bad logic to suppose it. It is far more logical to assume the brain is the origin of it all rather then inventing additional concepts to explain.
Please stop using that word proof. Your're using it as weapon in this debate. Nobody's rally "proven" much of anything, not even scientists. The real question is where does the evidence seem to be taking us. That's the best any scientist can do.
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