This question of being a Christian leads me to my greatest concern about the Catholic Church.
My greatest concern about the Catholic Church is infant baptism/sprinkling. When I raised this concern before, it was stated that there is a later confirmation, but I am concerned that infant Baptism/sprinkling leads to quantity and not quality.
This results in people like Pelosi who support abortion and homosexuality, yet call themselves Catholics.
Oh, many so-called 'pro-lifers' also support abortion Clirus. I wonder, maybe even you do. Hang on before you get mad, do you oppose unhealthy lifestyles? And do you oppose birth control pills? Are you for financial aid to mothers to be?
If no to any of these, then you are in fact supporting abortions. It doesn't matter if you say you oppose abortions if you through your actions support them. Unhealthy lifestyles cause MANY abortions. Birth control pills work, in part, because they cause abortions. And as I have mentioned before, the financial burden giving birth can be so heavy not everyone afford it.
What's more, I know from our earlier conversations that you support (or supported) exclusion of people who have sinned and gotten pregnant outside of marriage. This stigma can make the cost (socially) of having a child unbearable for many women. Resulting in abortions out of sheer shame. We could have done as my aunt and uncle did when a local girl got pregnant and was considering abortion: They supported her and helped her. They showed her inclusion and gave her a shoulder to cry on. Unconditionally. The result was that she gave birth to the child. And a life which would have been lost had she been met with rejection was saved.
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Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
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Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
Last edited by faith guardian; 27th October 2009 at 01:16 PM.
Oh, many so-called 'pro-lifers' also support abortion Clirus. I wonder, maybe even you do. Hang on before you get mad, do you oppose unhealthy lifestyles? And do you oppose birth control pills? Are you for financial aid to mothers to be?
If no to any of these, then you are in fact supporting abortions. It doesn't matter if you say you oppose abortions if you through your actions support them. Unhealthy lifestyles cause MANY abortions. Birth control pills work, in part, because they cause abortions. And as I have mentioned before, the financial burden giving birth can be so heavy not everyone afford it.
What's more, I know from our earlier conversations that you support (or supported) exclusion of people who have sinned and gotten pregnant outside of marriage. This stigma can make the cost (socially) of having a child unbearable for many women. Resulting in abortions out of sheer shame. We could have done as my aunt and uncle did when a local girl got pregnant and was considering abortion: They supported her and helped her. They showed her inclusion and gave her a shoulder to cry on. Unconditionally. The result was that she gave birth to the child. And a life which would have been lost had she been met with rejection was saved.
It is pretty easy to justify abortion as being good, but how do you justify an abortion when the Bible says, thou shalt not commit adultery?
After the initial sin, there are no good solutions, only a set of bad choices.
I believe abortion is a bad choice, because the woman, the doctor and the people facilitating the abortion may be committing murder.
As for me, I do not want the government where I pay taxes to provide abortions because that makes me a party to the abortion.
I believe God has provided marriage so that neither men nor women have to burn with desire. God may have provided birth control pills and vasectomies to limit family size. Maybe God made women fertile only one week a month so the rhythm method works.
It is pretty easy to justify abortion as being good, but how do you justify an abortion when the Bible says, thou shalt not commit adultery?
1. if it is easy, (out of curiosity) how would you do it?
2. What does abortion have to do with adultery? Not all women who abort are unmarried (nor adultresses)
Originally Posted by clirus
I believe abortion is a bad choice, because the woman, the doctor and the people facilitating the abortion may be committing murder.
Technically, no. It's legal, and the foetus is not classified asa human being as per the law so murder - which means the unlawful killing of one human being by another human being - does not really fit the bill. We may disagree with that definition, but it is what it is, and so the word cannot be correctly used in this setting.
But, I digress.
If you feel that abortion is that bad, then I am assuming you also feel that in addition to banning abortions we should ban birth control pills, IUDs and enforce healthy lifestyles (or castration) upon the general populace. As most abortions are either natural (and can't be helped) or are triggered by bad lifestyle (which can also lead to diseases for the child) or birth control pills.
Originally Posted by clirus
As for me, I do not want the government where I pay taxes to provide abortions because that makes me a party to the abortion.
You promote capitalism, Clirus. Through that there are SO many ways you promote abortions (passively) I couldn't begin to count them. Besides, you don't have to let the taxes support abortion. As it is abortion is very inexpensive in the US, costing only a few hundred dollars. Whereas a birth can cost a thousand times what an abortion costs. Not counting the extra costs of having a child. Like I said: 10% of women who have abortions done in the US has it done because they cannot afford a child. Small wonder given the price difference. Make childbirth free, and up the cost of abortions by enforcing a high tax on them and you'll reduce the number drastically. You could eliminate 10% of abortions by socializing birth and birth related medical expenses alone. That this venue is not explored by American conservatives makes me wonder how sincere you really are about the abortion issue. One man I spoke with about it was on fire about the number of abortions, but he would not for his dear life let the government pay for the birth expenses. That, he gathered, would be theft. Apparently paying a little more in taxes (or having a less powerful standing army) seems worse to him than the loss of 200 000 lives every year.
To me this seems more than a bit hypocritical.
Originally Posted by clirus
I believe God has provided marriage so that neither men nor women have to burn with desire. God may have provided birth control pills and vasectomies to limit family size. Maybe God made women fertile only one week a month so the rhythm method works.
Clirus, birth control pills work by aborting pregnancies. Not just by preventing pregnancies from occurring in the first place, but if a fertilization occurs, the pills prevent the fertilized egg from sticking to the uterus, aborting the pregnancy. Going to an abortion clinic is only more visible. A litte more formal if you will. It's the same thing, only at different stages.
Originally Posted by clirus
How many can your aunt and uncle handle?
If we all pull our bit, and help out when we see the need, all need will be met. Why do you think Jesus told us to love even our enemies? Because it would be easy? No. It works though. And if we all did it, this world would be a lot better for it.
Their support (which was moral not financial) saved that child's life. It is just as easy to give someone a smile as it is to give them a frown. Why not opt to be kind and loving towards them? Yes, a sin has been committed. They know it was a sin, and they are in a tough spot because of it. Jesus died for them however, so why not show them kindness and help them to feel loved and accepted despite their fall in sin. Such kindness has saved lives.
It can help them make the best possible choice once they ARE pregnant. And it doesn't necessarily cost a dime. Which is really cheap when a life is on the line, don't you think?
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Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
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Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
Last edited by faith guardian; 28th October 2009 at 03:28 PM.
It would seem the statement that "We Are All In This Together" is most often made by those seeking a handout.
When there is an illegitimate baby I did not participated in the impregnation.
When there is a case of AIDS or STDS, I did not participated in the sexual activity that did the transmission.
When there is disease, death, destruction and poverty produced by too much wine, women/men and song, I did not participate.
We are "not" all in this together because some avoid the evil/sin that leads to disease, death, destruction and poverty while others willfully participate in activities that are known to lead to disease, death, destruction and poverty.
Should Christians be penalized by having to pay for the willfully evil/sinful activities of the Atheists?
We are not in this together when the Baucus Health Care legislation would offer subsidies to those making less than $66,000 and penalties to those earning more than $66,000. Only a democrat could consider this as being fair.
I believe God intends that those who willfully disobey the commandments/doctrines of the Bible (willfully involved in evil/sin) to suffer disease, death, destruction and poverty. Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
I believe those that advocate helping those that are suffering due to willful evil/sin are doing the work of Satan and not of Jesus Christ. The first responsibility of Christians is to bring a person to accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior, then be involved with personal charity. There is never a justification of government run health care/welfare where people are helped without an acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior. Government run health care/welfare is nothing more than subsidizing sin/evil.
Democrats are fighting with God with their health care/welfare policies, and God is fighting back with ever increasing disease, death, destruction and poverty. When there is a rejection of the policies of the democrats and a revival in America, there will be a healing in America.
********************************************************** How does "clirus" explain The Parable of the Good Samaritan, given that it contradicts her contention that The Greatest Commandment should be interpreted so that Christians should only extend their "love" to other "Christian" neighbors. ("clirus" - I believe those that advocate helping those that are suffering due to willful evil/sin are doing the work of Satan and not of Jesus Christ.)
Given "clirus'" interpretation, God should have admonished the Samaritan for "doing the work of Satan" for exhibiting an act of "love" by coming to the aid of his avowed enemy - the Jew. ("clitus" - The first responsibility of Christians is to bring a person to accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior, then be involved with personal charity.) Supposedly, the Good Samaritan should have first attempted to have the Jew convert to his faith - and only then would he be allowed to extend charity to the wounded man.
So how does "clirus" explain Christ's purpose for introducing The Parable of the Good Samaritan to His audience - given that the 2 participants belonged to religious groups which literally hated each other?
*********************************************************
Samaritans were hated by the story's target audience, the Jews, to such a degree that the Lawyer did not mention them by name but as "The one who had mercy on him." The Samaritans in turn hated the Jews. The enmity was in essence religious: both groups accused each other of misinterpreting the Torah, of falsely considering themselves God's chosen people, and of conducting false worship, unacceptable to God.
Thus the parable, as told originally, incorporated the current religious and ethnic tension to teach, "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice: and the knowledge of God more than burnt sacrifice" (Hosea 6:6). But as the story reached those who were unaware of the oppression of the Samaritans, this aspect of the parable became less and less discernible: fewer and fewer people ever heard of them in any context other than as a description.
This question of being a Christian leads me to my greatest concern about the Catholic Church.
My greatest concern about the Catholic Church is infant baptism/sprinkling. When I raised this concern before, it was stated that there is a later confirmation, but I am concerned that infant Baptism/sprinkling leads to quantity and not quality.
This results in people like Pelosi who support abortion and homosexuality, yet call themselves Catholics.
You call yourself pro-life because you're anti-abortion, yet you have no interest in helping those who need it once they are born.
Sounds like you too are interested in quantity over quality.
__________________ "If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high,
You'd laugh and say 'Nothing's that simple!' But you've been told many times before,
Messiahs pointed to the door, And no one had the guts to leave the temple!" -- The Who
You call yourself pro-life because you're anti-abortion, yet you have no interest in helping those who need it once they are born.
Sounds like you too are interested in quantity over quality.
The problem is that there are no cures nor good solutions after sin has occurred, only as set of bad choices. The Bible offers no solution for illegitimate children, only prevention through abstinence.
TEN COMMANDMENTS Exodus 20:14, Thou shalt not commit adultery.
God has a plan, yet people do not understand that their miser is from not following God's Plan.
The problem is that there are no cures nor good solutions after sin has occurred, only as set of bad choices. The Bible offers no solution for illegitimate children, only prevention through abstinence.
TEN COMMANDMENTS Exodus 20:14, Thou shalt not commit adultery.
God has a plan, yet people do not understand that their miser is from not following God's Plan.
So Clirus, are you saying that aborting children is perfectly OK if the mother is unmarried?
Are you saying that illegitimate children are unworthy of God's love?
You know, married couples have abortions too.
__________________
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Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. dir="ltr">
Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. dir="ltr">
Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
The problem is that there are no cures nor good solutions after sin has occurred, only as set of bad choices. The Bible offers no solution for illegitimate children, only prevention through abstinence.
Jesus disagreed... he called on people to help those you've written off.
__________________ "If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high,
You'd laugh and say 'Nothing's that simple!' But you've been told many times before,
Messiahs pointed to the door, And no one had the guts to leave the temple!" -- The Who
The Bible offers no solution for illegitimate children, only prevention through abstinence.
Hmm...perhaps you'd care to cite the Scripture where Jesus's sacrifice on the Cross excludes children born out of wedlock? Where He excludes such from the Great Commission?
Because what you posted looks like heresy to me. "Whosoever believeth in me..." not "Whosoever lives as Clirus commands..."
__________________ NOTE: To posts seriously comparing Barack Obama to Adolf Hitler, I respond only with pictures of cute, fuzzy animals.
Hmm...perhaps you'd care to cite the Scripture where Jesus's sacrifice on the Cross excludes children born out of wedlock? Where He excludes such from the Great Commission?
Because what you posted looks like heresy to me. "Whosoever believeth in me..." not "Whosoever lives as Clirus commands..."
Jesus's death on the cross was the payment for the sins of all people, but to receive the benefits of that sacrifice, a person must accept Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commit to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.
God does not exclude anyone, they exclude themselves by their own personal decisions.
Revelation 3:20 states, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him and sup with him and he with me."
John 3:16-17 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
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