I believe many people are dying right now because they are living the Atheistic Lifestyle that leads to disease, death, destruction and poverty, but not from no health insurance.
A person having health insurance does no good if they continue in the Atheistic Lifestyle that leads to disease, death, destruction and poverty.
And what about people who don't believe in God, or are homosexual, or are Socialists, or are a combination of each, and still live healthily? How do they fit into your picture of the world?
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“Our reason suffers the peculiar fate that … it is beset by questions which it cannot set aside, as they arise from the nature of Reason itself; but these questions it cannot answer, for they transcend all the powers of Reason.” - Immanuel Kant. Critique of Pure Reason. 1781
Note: J.R.R. Tolkien once said, "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." At the present time I'm pre-occupied with other more urgent issues that demand my full attention, and so I'll be off CF for several months. Wishing you well, Mithrandir.
I believe many people are dying right now because they are living the Atheistic Lifestyle that leads to disease, death, destruction and poverty, but not from no health insurance.
A person having health insurance does no good if they continue in the Atheistic Lifestyle that leads to disease, death, destruction and poverty.
Clirus, you know this is wrong. What then do you say about the slaves who worked in Potosi? Did they die and suffer terrible health because of their own sins? The victims of genocide are victims because of their own sin? I guess Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Suharto were all justified in their massacres then as by your own words they would just be executing God's justice on the wicked. If they die or are sick, then it is because of their own sins after all.
And what does this mean about Africa or South America? I guess these continents are collectively sinful, and our (European and US) colonization and imperialism are justified and even righteous because we prosper and thrive as they, the producers and source of our wealth live in squalor. Surely it's our righteousness and good, loving godly nature which has enabled us to be rich, and it is the same nature by which we oppress the weak and poor!? Surely we are nought but avatars of God's holy justice when we took the silver of potosi, when we killed millions of slaves in the plantations and mines of South America and Africa what were we doing but God's will since we still profit from those actions and they still feel the harm of them?
How can you even think such thoughts Clirus?
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Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
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Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
The Bible states the wages of sin is death. Is it not at sin to reject God or to imply you are a Christian and yet hold on to other god's?
Just the same as there are Christians that get sick, there are Atheists that do not get sick.
I believe most Christians live healthy productive lives and most Atheists live sickly unproductive lives.
I do not believe most Christians exploit other people, but I believe that most Atheists exploit other people.
It bothers me to see Christians that want to see misery and poverty defined as political/social injustice when most misery and poverty can be traced back to the rejection of God.
Christians should be offering Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and a commitment to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible as a better lifestyle, instead of making excuses for the misery and poverty, then providing health care/welfare to keep the Atheistic Lifestyle going.
I believe most Christians live healthy productive lives and most Atheists live sickly unproductive lives.
I do not believe most Christians exploit other people, but I believe that most Atheists exploit other people.
But you have presented no evidence to qualify those two claims. If you were wrong, wouldn't you be bearing false witness?
It bothers me to see Christians that want to see misery and poverty defined as political/social injustice when most misery and poverty can be traced back to the rejection of God.
But much of it is the result of social-political injustice. If the poorest village in the poorest place in the world suddenly converted to Christianity do you honestly believe that their material poverty would suddenly end?
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“Our reason suffers the peculiar fate that … it is beset by questions which it cannot set aside, as they arise from the nature of Reason itself; but these questions it cannot answer, for they transcend all the powers of Reason.” - Immanuel Kant. Critique of Pure Reason. 1781
Note: J.R.R. Tolkien once said, "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." At the present time I'm pre-occupied with other more urgent issues that demand my full attention, and so I'll be off CF for several months. Wishing you well, Mithrandir.
The Bible states the wages of sin is death. Is it not at sin to reject God or to imply you are a Christian and yet hold on to other god's?
It sure is. But don't forget that the bible also says; Righteous are You, O Lord, when I plead with You; yet let me talk with You about Your judgments. Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why are those happy who deal so treacherously? (Jeremiah 12:1)
and Why do the wicked live and become old, yes, become mighty in power? Their descendants are established with them in their sight, and their offspring before their eyes. Their houses are safe from fear, neither is the rod of God upon them. Their bull breeds without failure; their cow calves without miscarriage. They send forth their little ones like a flock, and their children dance. They sing to the tambourine and harp, and rejoice to the sound of the flute. They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment [in peace, Moffatt] go down to the grave. (Job 21:7-13)
and more through for example psalm 73.
Is it possible that the death the bible speaks of is not necessarily a physical death but a spiritual one? I would say a spiritual death is worse than a physical one.
Originally Posted by clirus
Just the same as there are Christians that get sick, there are Atheists that do not get sick.
And if prosperity and health is dependent on godly behaviour -as you seem to suggest- how do you explain this?
Originally Posted by clirus
I believe most Christians live healthy productive lives and most Atheists live sickly unproductive lives.
Actually, atheism is biggest in the best developed countries suggesting the opposite is true.
Originally Posted by clirus
I do not believe most Christians exploit other people, but I believe that most Atheists exploit other people.
What then about the inquisition, or the abuse the church and the (supposedly) Christian leaders in Spain, Portugal, England and later the US has performed around the world in God's name? Which is what my original question was about. Please do answer it directly. Given the unavoidable fact that the Christian ruling elite in the colonial powers have killed and tortured millions for profit, in the name of God, were they justified as the people they killed were (usually) heathens?
Originally Posted by clirus
It bothers me to see Christians that want to see misery and poverty defined as political/social injustice when most misery and poverty can be traced back to the rejection of God.
Sure, it can be traced back. But not on account of the victims. It's more commonly because someone else (usually us in the west) have stepped on them and abused them for our own profit.
Originally Posted by clirus
Christians should be offering Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and a commitment to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible as a better lifestyle, instead of making excuses for the misery and poverty, then providing health care/welfare to keep the Atheistic Lifestyle going.
I disagree. It is crucial that we show Christ's love. An unconditional and undiserved love. We are not worthy of the blood of Christ. No-one is. But He loved us enough to die for us, and we are called to love just as much. So should we not be as loving and caring as Jesus was to those who do not deserve it? Jesus hung around prostitutes and sinners and loved them. He didn't ask them to repent and THEN showed them love. No, He showed them His perfect love and then they repented as a consequence of that love.
Should we not do the same?
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Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
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Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
Last edited by faith guardian; 15th October 2009 at 08:33 AM.
I believe many people are dying right now because they are living the Atheistic Lifestyle that leads to disease, death, destruction and poverty, but not from no health insurance.
A person having health insurance does no good if they continue in the Atheistic Lifestyle that leads to disease, death, destruction and poverty.
Hey, you can believe whatever you want. You can believe the President of the United States is a purple platypus with pink polka dots, that Elvis is alive and well and running a Shell station out on Route 66, that the moon landings were done in Hollywood, and rainbows really do have leprechauns with pots of gold at the end.
However, you can't actually prove anything you believe. Not in the real world. Your average in provable statements is somewhere south of, oh, .004 or thereabouts. If you shot free throws the way you back up your posts with evidence in these forums, you'd make one every other year or so. (Even a broken watch is right twice a day.)
Get the point? Why embarrass yourself further by posting here?
__________________ NOTE: To posts seriously comparing Barack Obama to Adolf Hitler, I respond only with pictures of cute, fuzzy animals.
I disagree. It is crucial that we show Christ's love. An unconditional and undiserved love. We are not worthy of the blood of Christ. No-one is. But He loved us enough to die for us, and we are called to love just as much. So should we not be as loving and caring as Jesus was to those who do not deserve it? Jesus hung around prostitutes and sinners and loved them. He didn't ask them to repent and THEN showed them love. No, He showed them His perfect love and then they repented as a consequence of that love.
Should we not do the same?
I concur fully. The Bible proclaims that Christ is our sacred model whom we should, as Christians, seek to imitate. Many of Clirus' propositions, such as "let[ing] them die" or extending charity only to the 'worthy' are clearly not imitations of Christ. The New Testament elucidates that none of us are worthy of God's grace, all have fallen short, and yet through the ultimate sacrifice of Christ we are granted this grace - that we cannot earn and do not deserve - as a free gift. The NT also proclaims that rain falls on the righteous and the wicked alike, and that in this mortal form we are all bound - righteous and wicked alike - to the same fate, that same doom: death. No-one can escape this characteristic of the human condition - the limit of mortality. The only hope we have is in the Resurrection. Until then, Christians and Atheists alike, regardless of whatever inner goodness or malevolence they possess, will share in the fate common to all human beings.
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“Our reason suffers the peculiar fate that … it is beset by questions which it cannot set aside, as they arise from the nature of Reason itself; but these questions it cannot answer, for they transcend all the powers of Reason.” - Immanuel Kant. Critique of Pure Reason. 1781
Note: J.R.R. Tolkien once said, "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." At the present time I'm pre-occupied with other more urgent issues that demand my full attention, and so I'll be off CF for several months. Wishing you well, Mithrandir.
Hey, you can believe whatever you want. You can believe the President of the United States is a purple platypus with pink polka dots,
Isn't that the latest Birther claim?
__________________ "If I told you what it takes to reach the highest high,
You'd laugh and say 'Nothing's that simple!' But you've been told many times before,
Messiahs pointed to the door, And no one had the guts to leave the temple!" -- The Who
I disagree. It is crucial that we show Christ's love. An unconditional and undiserved love. We are not worthy of the blood of Christ. No-one is. But He loved us enough to die for us, and we are called to love just as much. So should we not be as loving and caring as Jesus was to those who do not deserve it? Jesus hung around prostitutes and sinners and loved them. He didn't ask them to repent and THEN showed them love. No, He showed them His perfect love and then they repented as a consequence of that love.
Should we not do the same?
Response
It is crucial that we show God's love and God's righteousness. God's love is not unconditional.
TEN COMMANDMENTS Exodus 20:3–6;
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
I believe too many Christians like Jesus but reject God, yet they are the same as God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I believe separating God and Jesus leads to some strange thinking. The New Testament is for and about Christians (believers), it cannot be applied to Atheists. I believe the Old Testament is applicable to all people.
I disagree. It is crucial that we show Christ's love. An unconditional and undiserved love. We are not worthy of the blood of Christ. No-one is. But He loved us enough to die for us, and we are called to love just as much. So should we not be as loving and caring as Jesus was to those who do not deserve it? Jesus hung around prostitutes and sinners and loved them. He didn't ask them to repent and THEN showed them love. No, He showed them His perfect love and then they repented as a consequence of that love.
Should we not do the same?
Response
It is crucial that we show God's love and God's righteousness. God's love is not unconditional.
TEN COMMANDMENTS Exodus 20:3–6;
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
I believe too many Christians like Jesus but reject God, yet they are the same as God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I believe separating God and Jesus leads to some strange thinking. The New Testament is for and about Christians (believers), it cannot be applied to Atheists. I believe the Old Testament is applicable to all people.
What about the woman at the well? What about the parable of the good Samaritan? What about the commandment Jesus gave us to love our enemies? What have our enemies done to deserve that Jesus told us that we should love them and do good to them. He said that we should pray for those who persecute us. Not seek ways to lop their heads off like you seem to do. What had the woman who had committed adultery done to deserve Jesus' forgiveness when the pharisees wanted to stone her - in full accordance with the law. What had the man done to deserve the help he got from the good samaritan? It is likely he had considered samaritans to be vile people. Yet the samaritan still helped him. In that parable and through it Jesus is clearly telling us we should do as the Samaritan did. Which is not just to help those who are in need, but help those who hate us and consider us about as much worth as dogs.
Who are you to take upon your own shoulders that which God has taken on His? Can you execute God's judgement? Why should you when Jesus - who was and still is God - told us to love and do good to those who persecute us? Why do you ignore these things in favor of your own desire for violence, death and suffering for those who don't believe what you do? Why do you put your own hatred above the commands of Jesus?
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Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. dir="ltr">
Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
Last edited by faith guardian; 18th October 2009 at 08:42 AM.
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