Isaiah 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me.''
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Isaiah 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me.''
Great verse.
vv12-13 are also good verses when you're discussing the deity of Christ.
This is a great passage for witnessing to Jehovah's Witnesses because, as far as I know, the NWT hasn't butchered it yet.
Hey, yes, good verse..it's easy to overlook some of these verses, as one can get so familiar with stuff, that one does'nt necessarily notice things sometimes.
I wonder if there's actually a list somewhere of 'Trinity' verses. Or maybe it's better to do the donkey-work oneself.
Hey, yes, good verse..it's easy to overlook some of these verses, as one can get so familiar with stuff, that one does'nt necessarily notice things sometimes.
I've been studying the Bible for twenty years and am still amazed at how many times I catch myself saying, "Hey, I never noticed that before."
I've been studying the Bible for twenty years and am still amazed at how many times I catch myself saying, "Hey, I never noticed that before."
Yes, I've experiemced that also. Sometimes, too, one can see a verse a certain way (often somewhat different from the generally held view..at least of the Christians one knows), and that can make one feel a bit isolated in that interpretation. Then one reads something in a book, or discovers that, actually the verse or sentence can be translated differently, which actually matches one's own interpretation of it. Which is nice...it's good the way the Holy Spirit interprets for us...and then one finds corroboration later.
That's one reason I like these forums, as you get a plethora of perspectives and knowledge here, and can explore things more than sometimes one can in one's own church
Isaiah 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me.''
Sorry, guys. I'm just not seeing it.
What is the justification for assuming that "the beginning" refers to the beginning of the world or history or creation?
Isn't that the key to interpreting this passage as Trinitarian?
The other question is whether the speaker of vv.1-15 is the same as v.16. Obviously YHWH is speaking up until v.15. However, because of the "thus says YHWH" formula in v.16, it makes sense that the prophet might start speaking in v.15.
__________________
...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
Isaiah 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me.''
The only problem is that the verse still distinguishes between the Father, the Son and the Spirit in such a way that it infers (at least at face value) that the Father alone is the Lord God whilst the Son/Word/Memre and the Spirit are 'other' than the Lord God (i.e. that the Lord God is Mono-Personal rather than Tri-Personal)? The Tri-Personal Nature of the one God simply cannot be established on the basis of a single verse of Scripture and I believe that God has authored the Scriptures that way deliberately.
For the record, I am an ultra orthodox Christian who unequivocally believes in the Tri-Personal Nature of the one God.
Simonline.
__________________ THE MESSIAH IS ONEPERSON SIMULTANEOUSLY EXISTING IN TWO (DISTINCT BUT NOT SEPARATE) WAYS AS TWO (MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE) NATURES - DIVINE [YHWH] AND HUMAN [JESUS OF NAZARETH]. THE MESSIAH EXISTS FIRST AND FOREMOST AS THE DIVINE CREATOR AND ONLY IN A SECONDARY SENSE AS THE HUMAN CREATURE.
vv12-13 are also good verses when you're discussing the deity of Christ.
This is a great passage for witnessing to Jehovah's Witnesses because, as far as I know, the NWT hasn't butchered it yet.
It won't make any difference. Taken out of the context of the entire corpus of Scripture this verse will still be interpreted according to Mono-Personal theological presuppositions by the members of the Mono-Personal cults.
Simonline.
__________________ THE MESSIAH IS ONEPERSON SIMULTANEOUSLY EXISTING IN TWO (DISTINCT BUT NOT SEPARATE) WAYS AS TWO (MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE) NATURES - DIVINE [YHWH] AND HUMAN [JESUS OF NAZARETH]. THE MESSIAH EXISTS FIRST AND FOREMOST AS THE DIVINE CREATOR AND ONLY IN A SECONDARY SENSE AS THE HUMAN CREATURE.
Hey, yes, good verse..it's easy to overlook some of these verses, as one can get so familiar with stuff, that one does'nt necessarily notice things sometimes.
I wonder if there's actually a list somewhere of 'Trinity' verses. Or maybe it's better to do the donkey-work oneself.
Yes! It is much better to do the donkey work your self rather than relying on someone else's 'proof-texts'. That way you get to familiarize yourself with the entire Scriptures and not just how to navigate around the Scriptures on the basis of 'proof-texts' alone. Once you have familiarized yourself with the entire canon then you will find it much easier to 'earnestly contend for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints' (Jude.1:3) rather than just being able to spout 'proof-texts' by rote as the cults do.
Simonline.
__________________ THE MESSIAH IS ONEPERSON SIMULTANEOUSLY EXISTING IN TWO (DISTINCT BUT NOT SEPARATE) WAYS AS TWO (MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE) NATURES - DIVINE [YHWH] AND HUMAN [JESUS OF NAZARETH]. THE MESSIAH EXISTS FIRST AND FOREMOST AS THE DIVINE CREATOR AND ONLY IN A SECONDARY SENSE AS THE HUMAN CREATURE.
I've been studying the Bible for twenty years and am still amazed at how many times I catch myself saying, "Hey, I never noticed that before."
That's because the Scriptures, as the Word of God, are as inscrutably Deep as God Himself.
Simonline.
__________________ THE MESSIAH IS ONEPERSON SIMULTANEOUSLY EXISTING IN TWO (DISTINCT BUT NOT SEPARATE) WAYS AS TWO (MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE) NATURES - DIVINE [YHWH] AND HUMAN [JESUS OF NAZARETH]. THE MESSIAH EXISTS FIRST AND FOREMOST AS THE DIVINE CREATOR AND ONLY IN A SECONDARY SENSE AS THE HUMAN CREATURE.
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