Saying that God created evil is like saying General Motors manufactures thousands of new cars and trucks every day, and every day thousands of these GM cars and trucks are wrecked, so using your line of reasoning GM must sell wrecked cars and trucks? No, once GM releases their cars and trucks to the public it is the public that wrecks them not GM. God created everything in the world "and it was very good" then we "wrecked" creation and evil came from the wreck.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
I highlighted that part of the verse because if you look up another verse;
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual [hosts] of wickedness in the heavenly [places].
Col 2:15Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Now the question to ask yourself is, if God is against the principalities and powers, Who and or what are they. They were yet created by Him as attested to By Col. 1:16
Saying that God created evil is like saying General Motors manufactures thousands of new cars and trucks every day, and every day thousands of these GM cars and trucks are wrecked, so using your line of reasoning GM must sell wrecked cars and trucks? No, once GM releases their cars and trucks to the public it is the public that wrecks them not GM. God created everything in the world "and it was very good" then we "wrecked" creation and evil came from the wreck.
Ben
That is a very poor analogy.
Whatever happens in all of creation should rightly be viewed with FIRST CAUSE in mind because without FIRST CAUSE absolutely NOTHING would be there to be 'evil'
There is no de-linking of God to His Creation. Whatever IS, even if it's BAD has to presumably serve His Purposes for same. IF God did not want 'evil' to exist, it wouldn't.
Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
One might say that the knowledge of EVIL isn't EVIL, but unfortunately it is still EVIL...right there in the Garden, made by GOD and placed therein...even if the FULL NON-FRUIT was not yet sprouted.
Most of christianity is so utterly focused on blaming Adam they seem to forget what Jesus said about the DEVILS reactions to where THE WORD is sown:
Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
The SERPENT was in the garden. There is about ZERO reason to believe that the SERPENT did not ENTER Adam the instant God spoke BLESSINGS upon THEM.
The progression of SIN is via THOUGHT, Word and eventually DEED.
We cannot perceive the SIN IN THOUGHT...however doing just a tad bit of forensic scriptural MATH we know for example from Paul that the LAW is for the LAWLESS.
IF we see the command to NOT EAT...as the LAW, which it surely IS, it is not hard to see that the LAWLESS ONE, satan, had already entered Adam.
Another result of that 'entry' is Adams 'feeling' of lonliness. We all sit around and think, "I just can't wait to bask in the Presence of God." Yet there sat ADAM with God in the Garden and was experiencing LONLINESS...SEPARATION....another SIGN that the SERPENT was already INSIDE....
Eve recounted the 'command' WRONGLY to the Serpent also, showing that she UNDERSTOOD NOT....
So we really have TWO STRIKES of obvious SIN prior to the EATING even happening. The LAW given to the LAWLESS and the UNDERSTANDING NOT...both provided because
EVIL had already ENTERED Adam.
This deal was cut and locked by God Himself...
And Paul says exactly that in Romans 11:32
God Himself BOUND ALL MEN TO DISOBEDIENCE.
HOW you say? Simply by PLANTING the WORD in them and the ARRIVAL immediately after BY SATAN....
If an infinitely powerful God is capable of creating evil, how does a fallible person know they are not being deceived in all things?
So basically, you're asking whether or not the existence of evil ruins the perfect trustworthiness of God?
If God is responsible for evil, then yes, it would seem to follow that God is not trustworthy.
Therefore, since God is CAPABLE of deceiving all humanity in all things, it is impossible to be certain of anything.
Yep, that makes sense.
1. Infinitely powerful God.
2. God responsible for evil.
3. God is capable of full deceit.
4. No one can be sure of any knowledge.
So what? What's your point?
__________________
...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
If an infinitely powerful God is capable of creating evil, how does a fallible person know they are not being deceived in all things?
God was fully aware that Satan would come to be, and thus He is ultimately the source of evil's existance. Think about it. God knew Satan's rebellion would happen since He knows all things, including the future. After the cosmic treason, God could have easily thrown Satan into the 'abyss' on day one and locked the Key to the door forever and ever. BUT HE DIDN'T!!!!! He allowed Satan to roam the earth and to tempt Adam and Eve. Thus God can be said to be the ultimate source of why evil exists. That being said, if God is the God of the bible, we know that God's ultimate purpose for man is to have an intimate relationship with Himself and for man to be the expression of Christ Himself to others, all to the Glory of God. Note that throughout the history of mankind, it is God who reaches down to man. RIGHT? Since God is an infinite being, it is God who needs to reach down to us, a finite creature, and make himself known. So to answer your question, it is God who makes Himself known to man. Not the other way around. If God does not reveal Himself, then man will be decieved in all things.
1 Jn 5:19-20 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so thatwe may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
.
__________________ Lord, fill me with Your Spirit today. I can’t fix yesterday, and tomorrow seems a long way off. Today, Lord: Cleanse my heart from the fleshly residue of yesterday’s fallen humanity. Today, Lord: Scrub my thoughts and motives till they shine with singularity—wanting Your glory alone. Today, Lord: Wash me and I will be whiter than snow, purposed afresh to follow Your footsteps.
Last edited by DArceri; 11th October 2009 at 03:28 AM.
So basically, you're asking whether or not the existence of evil ruins the perfect trustworthiness of God?
If God is responsible for evil, then yes, it would seem to follow that God is not trustworthy.
Therefore, since God is CAPABLE of deceiving all humanity in all things, it is impossible to be certain of anything.
Yep, that makes sense.
1. Infinitely powerful God.
2. God responsible for evil.
3. God is capable of full deceit.
4. No one can be sure of any knowledge.
So what? What's your point?
Ah, but you forget the better points:
God can create and use ANY thing for betterment.
IF evil were a pile of crap and God used that to spring forth a FLOWER (hope, faith, love) and threw away the crap when done, does this make GOD EVIL? No.
HOPE is formed by us being immersed in darkness/evil.
Divine Mercy will be 'experienced' and TANGIBLE to us from being bound to DISOBEDIENCE.
We are ALL experiencing a DIVINE TRAIT of love in LONG SUFFERING with these powers.
Does that make GOD the bad guy? No. Why should it? Those are GOOD RESULTS...and God CAN make GOOD come of EVIL and is therefore JUSTIFIED in both creating it and using it.
HE is the OVER RIDING factor in ALL THINGS.
IF Perfection is greater than the SUM OF ALL THINGS...then God can use ANY THING and it will all turn out JUST PERFECTLY FINE.
When Jesus was on the road to Emmaus with the two disciples, they were surprised that the stranger with them hadn't heard what happened with Jesus, even though it was JESUS they were talking to. Here was Jesus response to ALL of those things:
Luke 24: 18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? 19 And he said unto them, What things?
Purposefully feigned ignorance....?
Or HOW DIVINE PROVIDENCE sees THINGS?
In any case it was a pretty funny response considering what 'things' happened to Him immediately prior.
IF evil were a pile of crap and God used that to spring forth a FLOWER (hope, faith, love) and threw away the crap when done, does this make GOD EVIL? No.
Unfortunately evil cannot be "thrown away." Evil acts constitute part of our history and they are there to stay. The gross shortcoming of the theodicy of redemptive suffering -- that "shadows are needed to set off highlights" -- is that if God is really all-powerful, he is not forced to take these painful routes toward the creation of "perfectly good" experiences. And if God IS forced to use evil to create good, or is even inclined to do so, his omnipotence and omnibenevolence are rendered less than cosmic.
__________________
...Do not let me hear
Of the wisdom of old men, but rather of their folly,
Their fear of fear and frenzy, their fear of possession, Of belonging to another, or to others, or to God. The only wisdom we can hope to acquire Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
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